Speaker 0 | 00:08.702

Hi, nerds. I’m Michael Moore, hosting this podcast for Dissecting Popular IT Nerds. I’m here with Dakota Bates, IT Manager at SES AI, a corp. Hi, how’s it going there? Welcome to the program, Dakota. I’m going to start off with our icebreaker segment. We usually start, it’s random access memories. I’m going to ask you a question and then respond with the answer. You just respond with the answer that comes to your head first. Very simple. So the first question you have is if you were to design a computer, what would it look like?

Speaker 1 | 00:42.079

Probably say it’d be black and pink and as small as possible and as powerful as possible.

Speaker 0 | 00:47.240

There you go. I know it’s actually the listeners won’t be able to see, but you’re wearing a shirt and a hat that is both black and pink, right? Are those your favorite colors?

Speaker 1 | 00:59.084

i would say so yeah and this is also my uh my clothing brand so that’s why i’m going to show what is the go ahead and say what the clothing brand is so uh so they know uh yeah so for those that can’t see uh it’s called the humble and kind project i started about three months ago um just because with the way the world is today uh we did a lot of negativity and i figured that all right this is a great way to uh spread some positivity and honestly regardless of what political side you’re on, you know, religion or anything, any of that kind of stuff, I believe pretty much anyone would agree that everyone should be humble and kind. So here I am. That’s why I started it.

Speaker 0 | 01:38.789

I love it. I love it. And black and pink. I love the contrast. It’s actually really cool. So it’s a cool shirt. So you guys should check it out. Your next question is, if you could invent one thing to make your IT work life better. What would that be?

Speaker 1 | 01:58.816

I don’t know if it would be a device or an incentive for people to actually follow procedures.

Speaker 0 | 02:04.200

Device or an incentive for people to follow procedures. Wow. That’s a tall order.

Speaker 1 | 02:12.786

I think it would make pretty much any IT professional’s life a lot easier if we could get that done.

Speaker 0 | 02:20.891

Here’s your last question before we kind of get into it. What technology are you surprised?

Speaker 1 | 02:27.404

that still are you surprised to think that still exists today hmm that’s a good question most of the environments i’m dealing with are pretty up to spec um i guess desk phones i don’t know why to me that still surprises me that we have desk phones i

Speaker 0 | 02:45.228

i don’t have a desk phone i i stopped that a long time ago i i didn’t like having to pick it up and and stuff like that i i use it on the computer you know and or just you know to chat like we’re doing right now

Speaker 1 | 02:57.512

so it’s amazing we still have phone calls to just call some people and when i can just go hey look at you right here i can talk to you face to face i think that’s i think that’s more powerful in my opinion i completely agree and i mean i and most people yeah i think most people don’t have a phone but i still have people currently in my office that are you know adamant about having their so i’m like okay you know it’s

Speaker 0 | 03:21.779

interesting it might come out of a comfort you know of always having it Um, I know there’s, you know, there’s some things that if you’re comfortable, you’ve been doing it for a long time and, and you, uh, um, you, you have a harder time letting it go sometimes. I mean, that happens a lot in it, right? Uh, it happens a lot everywhere, but I, why have you been doing this? I’ve been doing it my whole entire life. So I just continue to do it. Right.

Speaker 1 | 03:50.049

Yeah. I think, I don’t know if it was your last podcast or no, I think it was two podcasts ago. You guys were talking about that, about how a lot of IT professionals get stuck in their ways. However they do one thing, they’re going to do that the rest of their career.

Speaker 0 | 04:05.166

And it’s tough to change the mold. It’s tough to kind of move them around. But I do feel like you have to. I feel like change is required to keep moving in IT, especially because it just never stops changing.

Speaker 1 | 04:23.259

Yeah, for sure. I mean… And if it’s more convenient and more secure than I’m all for, especially for the end users, if it’s more convenient, it’s easier for them to understand, then I’m all behind with them.

Speaker 0 | 04:33.005

Absolutely. So let’s talk about you for a minute. IT manager. And I was looking, you know, as I always do with everybody, jump on LinkedIn, take a look at what’s going on. You know, you’ve worked at it. It sounds like you, you know. You’ve got almost a typical startup where you come in and you engineer, system administrator, right up to IT manager. And I would say a pretty rapid pace. Does that kind of track with what you’ve done?

Speaker 1 | 05:16.666

Yeah, not exactly. I mean, the only thing I’d probably correct is the engineer role that I had. I was basically just a ticket maker. for that company so basically all i was really doing was making tickets and then assigning them to their proper team i mean they guys yeah yeah they gave us some rights in the beginning where i could reset passwords and map printers and then they took that away from us so that first job really wasn’t it

Speaker 0 | 05:40.404

was just basically like you said a dispatcher a ticketing dispatcher which by the way um and i’ve said this in previous podcasts but i’m going to reiterate it because i think it’s important um The roles on a help desk when you’re working on a help desk seem to be some of the most valuable tools to learn when you’re going into IT.

Speaker 1 | 06:06.083

Yeah, I agree. It definitely gave me a lot of good experience. Just communicating. I can’t talk right now.

Speaker 0 | 06:14.750

That happens to me every time I do a podcast. I think I messed up this one. It’s a good thing. I think people are just generally they now just expect that I’m going to fumble over words and it’s just part of the stick. Right. So, no, go ahead. Sorry about it.

Speaker 1 | 06:29.741

No, no worries. Just communicating with people. Developing that skill, I think, is very underrated in IT. I feel like most people don’t communicate enough. I like to over communicate, especially with the end users. I believe, you know, people if people know you’re working on your problem on their problem and you give them updates constantly, then they probably will leave you alone. They won’t get mad. So I learned a lot.

Speaker 0 | 06:49.035

about that at that job no i that’s a communication is such a big key to um to anything um and it kind of brings me into my next point too um uh uh i would say you’re a relatively uh newly experienced it manager right uh it’d be a fair statement and and i actually think that this is interesting because i deal A lot of these podcasts have dealt with a lot of people that have had a lot of experience in IT. What’s interesting here is I get to see it now from the other side. This is a really big thing. I want to dive into it. I’ve got a million questions here, so you’re going to be inundated. I get it from one side, which is like, hey, listen, we’ve been going through it. We’ve done it and stuff like that. We’ve got a bunch of people coming into the IT field and, you know, and they’ve got a different way of working and all this stuff. And I personally, I’m blessed to work with an amazing team who happen to have, you know, I happen to be, have more experience than they do, right? And a lot of different things. And they teach me. on a daily basis, new things that I’ve never even thought of. And, and the amount of, I just think to myself going, what a blessing to actually work like this, because I actually get to be inundated in, in, in new ideas all the time, new ways of working. And it challenges me to stay on top of my game and my, and my perspective and not get caught in that trap of just this. We’ve always done this this way. And my way is the, is the way. So I’m interested now to kind of turn this around. What have you seen coming in as a relatively newly experienced IT manager and starting to kind of interact in that role? And I’m sure you interact with much more experienced IT managers and stuff like that have been out there for a longer period of time. What’s that interaction been like?

Speaker 1 | 09:09.068

It’s been awesome for the most part. Now, you’re mostly asking me, like, my interactions with people, like, that are senior to me or people that are either equivalent or below me.

Speaker 0 | 09:18.156

Well, not necessarily people that are senior or below you or anything like that. Because from an org chart standpoint, really, it’s just different. This is how I view org charts. It’s really different responsibilities in different areas, right? Org charts, in my opinion, are… structured kind of oddly sometimes. And you have to draw diagonal lines and move the lines over here. And so I don’t know. It’s more about me, about the responsibility and the roles and who’s responsible for doing what. And when I’m talking about that, you may have people in roles and they could be roles in which maybe you report through up to them, over to them, to the side of them, or different ways, or maybe they’re just a colleague. But they may have more experience. uh um over the time of beaches being in the workforce longer right uh do you uh how is the um you know the day-to-day with that do you run into any obstacles uh um is there any do you see it flowing really well yeah

Speaker 1 | 10:28.639

for the most part it flows for the most part pretty well i’ve kind of at first i was like oh man this isn’t fun report like through my career i’ve reported to multiple departments I don’t know about you, I feel like most common IT gets stuffed into finance. That’s what I’m accustomed to, but I’ve actually reported to three different departments before. So I’ve reported to finance, operations, and legal. Reporting to legal is actually pretty cool. I thought it was really odd at first, but I get to learn a lot about compliance. And just that insight has now made me understand a lot more of why businesses operate the way they do, because I’d constantly be asking questions like, why are we doing this? This is way… more complicated it needs to be, we’ll come to find out, you know, the government has X, Y, and Z that you need to comply to. So if anything, I’ve learned a lot just from that.

Speaker 0 | 11:19.258

At Dissecting Popular IT Nerds, we expect to win and we expect our IT directors to win. And one of those areas where we know that we can help you win is internet service providers. As an IT director tasked with managing internet connectivity, Few vendor relationships can prove more painfully frustrating than the one with your internet service provider. The array of challenges seems never ending from unreliable uptime and insufficient bandwidth to poor customer service and hidden fees. It’s like getting stuck in rush hour traffic. Dealing with ISPs can try once patients even on the best of days. So whether you are managing one location or a hundred locations, our back office support team. and vendor partners are the best in the industry. And the best part about this is none of this will ever cost you a dime. I’m actually glad you brought that up because it’s always been a… So IT was born out of finance because that’s where the numbers were. That’s where you get a lot of the automation and that’s where the data was that had to be… kind of, okay, wait a second, this is data that needs to be saved somewhere, much people need to access it and everything. So that’s why a lot of times you see IT reporting into finance. And it actually makes sense too, because IT can drive a lot of cost savings and improvements and stuff in that area. But you’re right. Throughout my career, I’ve had to interact with multiple departments. uh illegal being one of the most fun it’s always they have such an interesting viewpoint on how everything works you know and and you and you’re right it’s like the you have compliance is one piece of it with the uh with the government regulations and all that stuff and then and then you’ll have another side which is contracts i don’t know if you’ve had a have you had a uh yeah that’s a whole different animal isn’t it yeah i mean i’ve had all the legal people have worked with

Speaker 1 | 13:29.339

in the office have been super nice and then i’ve gotten new meetings with them and i haven’t said a word and i am like you are a different person like they they get way more cutthroat in a meeting than they do in the office i one of the most famous i actually um one of the things i i thought was just uh

Speaker 0 | 13:46.393

one of my favorite things was um i was in an office uh and uh we were talking back and forth uh with this really really great uh um lawyer that was sent on council. And we’re having this conversation about what we needed to do. And he gets a phone call in his office. And he’s like, wait a second, right? And he answers the phone call. And I almost had to cover my mouth because I was going to laugh so bad because I was watching the interaction between them two on the phone and how quickly they came to, well, I don’t think if you look from your posture, I don’t know what, well, I mean, I’ve got this problem. And they like listed off all these different points really quickly. And then they like, well, so we agree we’re going to go this route. OK, great. Thanks. All right. Yeah. Thanks, man. All right. Talk to you later. Bye. See, you know, and like in like a minute they got to the things and you wonder like, you know, you see these these television shows about, you know, these dramatic things that happen. Here was just a small exchange. They’re like, well, I’ve got these things. Well, I’ve got these things. How about here? OK, we’re good. You know, and it was just how they come to a decision really quickly, just running through their points. It was amazing to watch. And he gets back to the conversation. He’s like, so, bro, what’s going on? You can go from that to this. So it sounds like you’ve had some experiences that are close to that.

Speaker 1 | 15:09.804

Oh, for sure. And there’s been times too, where I’ve gone to meetings, into contract meetings, and come out and be like, all right, you got to find a new vendor. And I’m like, all right, back to square one. It’s not what I wanted, but here we are.

Speaker 0 | 15:22.132

It is tough. But I mean, without that legal team, you know, without somebody sitting in front there and really, you know, helping you in that regard, you can see how quickly you’d stumble into problems.

Speaker 1 | 15:38.503

Oh, for sure. I mean, And thank God we have people like that because I drop stuff off. I drop papers off with my paralegal sometimes, and I don’t understand how they just read documents all day. Like that is probably sounds like the worst job I could possibly think of.

Speaker 0 | 15:53.249

But they must like it, right? I’m sure they look at your job and go, I don’t know how he deals with those computers. I don’t know how he deals with those. So, yeah. So another interesting one is marketing. Have you had to get a chance to deal with marketing yet?

Speaker 1 | 16:09.388

Uh, somewhat, uh, not as much as I’d like to, cause I feel like their job’s pretty fun. It seems like pretty creative, but I’m sure down the line, I’ll definitely be more involved with them. Why, what are your, what are your experiences with marketing?

Speaker 0 | 16:21.491

I’ve, you know, marketing has always been kind of an interesting one to me. I mean, you know, like I’m sitting here looking at your shirt and hat. I mean, you’ve got a little bit of marketing going on right now. Right. So, um, right. But, um, uh, I’ve actually, it’s been interesting because I’ve used marketing. in a way to team up with them to help promote different things within IT that I wanted to happen. Like for instance, if I was moving to a new ticketing system, right? I created a brand new brand for IT and was able to actually push that brand out. And I’ve done a couple of different places. And so push the brand out IT, which creates some excitement and then helps drive people to the new solution that you want. want to do. And it’s been interesting when you can get a hold of marketing and get them excited about that and actually make sure the leadership allows you to do this. It’s amazing what they’ll be able to push from a messaging standpoint out to the end users to be able to communicate things that IT sometimes finds it hard to communicate.

Speaker 1 | 17:32.710

Oh, definitely. And for the most part, I believe that. organizations don’t like change. So if you’re implementing a ticketing system, having marketing behind it probably makes a world’s difference because everyone will probably be bought in by the end of the email.

Speaker 0 | 17:48.229

Yeah, I love it. And I think that if you… I wait for you to… I challenge you here to next time you got something coming up and to see if you can get marketing on your side and help you push that out and see how well that push goes. from a messaging standpoint.

Speaker 1 | 18:08.125

Yeah, I’ll definitely keep that now in the back of my head next time I’m rolling out some kind of big change. I’ll probably contact them first, but like, hey, can you help me communicate this and try to get everyone on board so everyone doesn’t hate me?

Speaker 0 | 18:17.432

Yeah, exactly. What got you into IT in the first place?

Speaker 1 | 18:24.357

So I was trying to become a police officer and I did actually, I had a job offer for the state and I started weighing my options. And it kind of got to me and I was like, I don’t think this is worth it at the end of the day now with everything they have to deal with. And on top of that, I actually didn’t want to work shift work. I didn’t feel like working nights again. So then I started looking at different avenues and I always liked video games. So then I started poking around building a computer and I was like, oh, this is pretty fun. And I did some more research on like where the IT market was going. And so then I decided to make a change and I kind of got super lucky. I was at that that. ticketing dispatching job and then i got hit by a recruiter and the recruiter was telling me hey i think your your background’s a great fit for this company uh how are you coming for an interview and i was like my background is terrible for this company i don’t know why you’re asking me to do this um i just started this and this role seems a little bit more advanced for me uh long story short i went for the interview for that job i didn’t get that job because there was another person, another manager in the meeting interviewing me, and he poached me for his job. And that’s where I got my first sysadmin role. Wow. Yeah, that’s where I really started my IT career was there.

Speaker 0 | 19:45.679

That’s fantastic, actually. What a great story to be able to get poached out of an interview for another meeting. That’s great. And it’s a smart manager to be able to do that.

Speaker 1 | 19:56.442

Yeah. So he poached me because he was in the military, so wasn’t I. So that’s… the main reason that he brought me over. And he did not make my life easy either. I’ll never forget. I showed up on my first day because he asked me before I started like, oh, are you a Mac or PC guy? And I was like, I’ve always used PC. So if you, if you can just give me a Lenovo, that’d be most appreciated. And I showed up with a Mac pro on my desk.

Speaker 0 | 20:18.943

You know, but that was actually probably a good move on, on, on, on his part because what, what he just did there, right. Was he took, uh, he knew you already had the skillset with, uh, um, with the, with the PCs, but now he’s challenging you with the Mac. So you’re on the job learning how to work a Mac. So now you can troubleshoot both.

Speaker 1 | 20:39.717

Yeah. I mean, looking back on it now, I’m definitely super appreciative. But then on top of that, three weeks later, he gave me a client to run. And I remember this is my first IT job ever. And now I was responsible for a financial company in the back end of Boston. And here I am sitting there with a Mac that I’m learning as I go. And now I have to run this client.

Speaker 0 | 21:00.655

And yet you survived and lived to tell the tale about it, right?

Speaker 1 | 21:05.839

Yeah. I mean, I don’t know if I would recommend that. You know, I mean. managers out there managing MSP teams. I don’t know if you should do that to your employees because it was very stressful.

Speaker 0 | 21:16.907

I was looking around at your posts on LinkedIn and one of them, oh, a couple of them, they were, as I was looking at them, I saw like a common theme and the theme was kind of a rising up against micromanagement.

Speaker 1 | 21:34.980

Yeah.

Speaker 0 | 21:36.421

So I wanted to… Take a second, because, you know, I don’t I don’t want to jump into my thoughts on this yet. I want to hear what your thoughts are on management style.

Speaker 1 | 21:50.867

Oh, great question, because this is actually the reason I also started my own company. I’ll circle back to that later. As far as management goes, I have a lot of beef with micromanaging. Personally, I think if you micromanage, you shouldn’t be a manager. That’s my hot take on that. When it comes to managing, at least for me, I let people try to figure things out. I will always be there for them. They need help. I will always help them. But you’ve got to hire people that can do their job by themselves. And plus, I don’t know, I haven’t met a single person that likes to be micromanaged. I don’t know about you, but I have yet to stumble upon someone that wants someone down the throat 24-7 telling them how to do something.

Speaker 0 | 22:29.880

Why do you think that micromanagement happens?

Speaker 1 | 22:35.466

I think a lot of it has to do with insecurity, in my personal opinion. On top of that, most likely their manager probably also micromanages. They probably have someone down their throat going at them day in and day out, probably making their life pretty stressful. So now it’s just rolling downhill, basically. That’s what I think for the most part. And that’s at least what I’ve seen for the most part as well.

Speaker 0 | 22:58.255

And what do you think is the best way to counteract micromanagement?

Speaker 1 | 23:03.958

If you’re being micromanaged, I’d probably say try to get ahead of the manager if you can. If you can kind of predict what they’re going to want to do next and you already have it done, then I most likely believe that they would start to relax because they’re going to recognize the fact that, oh, this person’s already stepped ahead of me. I probably don’t need to be on them as much.

Speaker 0 | 23:24.243

It’s a great method, actually. And I’ve used it before. Luckily, throughout my career, I’ve been lucky to have to not have to be micromanaged so much, right? And sometimes when you start to get micromanaged, that’s when you take a second and step back and be like, okay, why? And I like your answer here. Why does this person think that I need to be micromanaged? And let’s turn this inward. Let’s look at me for a minute and say, okay, am I getting the items done that this person wants? Am I meeting expectations that this person wants? And those answers are all yes. Then I guess a conversation, right, would be warranted as to why. Okay. Yeah. You know, where is this coming from? Why do you feel this need, even though I’m meeting these expectations? And I think that’s probably the good move there. What about, let’s flip around to, because I recently read an article. about the opposite of micromanaging, right? The hands-off manager, which had mentioned that, yes, micromanaging can be very detrimental, but also what can be detrimental is whatever the opposite of micromanaging is, right? Macromanaging?

Speaker 1 | 24:55.452

I don’t know. I was literally about to say, is it macromanaging? I have no idea if that’s even a real word for it, but… we’re gonna find out probably right yeah exactly if but but my only thing with that is is like if you if you have to like be on someone constantly day in and day out and you hired them, you made a mistake on day one, man. You messed up, so now you’re paying for it. So now it’s on you. I don’t even have sympathy for you at that point. If you’re going to be a leader, if it’s… I mean, my approach to anyone that I manage is if they fail at something, it’s my fault.

Speaker 0 | 25:26.800

Yeah. Well, I mean, that’s ownership, right? I mean, you have to take that ownership. And especially if they… Everyone that reports to you, right? You’re responsible for. You’re responsible for making sure that they hit those deadlines. You’re responsible for communicating the deadlines and communicating the stuff. So I always feel like if someone is not doing what I ask, then I need to take a step back and say, what have I done or not done to communicate effectively what’s happening? And and then I re-communicate it out. So what about. What about, let’s say, we’re going to use the term macro management until we’re corrected by someone. But what about macro management? What about the opposite, the complete hands off?

Speaker 1 | 26:15.012

For me, that works for me. I’m a very independent person. So, I mean, that works for me. And now, what’s your exact question, though, on macro management?

Speaker 0 | 26:23.274

Oh, I mean, can it be as detrimental as micro management?

Speaker 1 | 26:28.095

Yeah, for sure. I mean, if you’re not, because the way I look at that, then, is you’re not communicating to anyone. So how is anyone going to know what they need to do?

Speaker 0 | 26:35.938

so it’s it’s just as bad and it’s i mean there’s definitely a easy middle ground you can find uh but if i had to pick i would pick macro like i wouldn’t i’d yeah well i think you would it sounds like you would right because you would pick macro one because then you would say oh you know what i can do i can proactively just ask this person some items that i need what are the things you need to get me done great thanks i’ll go do them uh but not everyone’s like that right you

Speaker 1 | 27:04.222

for sure you know i mean i actually i don’t think most people like that at least in my experience coming across as people being micromanagers that’s been kind of slim um but for the people that do micromanage i i don’t understand how they do it because i look at it as like you’re basically a full-time babysitter and i did not get

Speaker 0 | 27:24.059

into it to be a babysitter why’d you why’d you hire anyone in the first place just do it yourself right i mean that’s it at that point um I agree. And I guess it goes back to communication style, right? I mean, communication kind of plays pretty well in your style of management. I mean, if you’re a good communicator and you’re able to communicate effectively what needs to get done, when it needs to get done, and general guidelines of how it needs to happen, then… So the micromanagement or macromanagement, it shouldn’t really be an issue, right? Because it really goes down to communication.

Speaker 1 | 28:07.556

Yeah, definitely. And then on top of that, too, I mean, everyone has their own way of doing things. So as long as a job gets done, then I don’t care really how people do it. Right. There’s multiple ways to do it. You don’t have to do it a specific way. I’ve come across people that are by the book. You have to do it their way, and that’s it.

Speaker 0 | 28:25.294

So as long as you as long as there’s parameters that, you know, like we mentioned earlier about compliance and pieces and stuff like that that need to get done. And in that case, as long as you’ve outlined the parameters and you’ve handed that way, you know, who cares how it gets done? It’s like it’s done, done and done in time and done correctly. Right. So, you know, there’s there’s information, I think, that can be imparted to make things easier. Hey, when you do this, be aware of these items that might pop up. And if they happen to pop up and you need help with them, come see me. But yeah, I think that’s good advice here about this. So let’s take that communication. Has communication between an up-and-comer IT manager and people that have been in IT management for a longer time. Has that been an issue at all? Or have you think that it’s really a non-issue? And what’s your take on it?

Speaker 1 | 29:35.185

It hasn’t been an issue for me, because I understand that I have now gotten myself into this position in a very short amount of time. So when I am around someone that has 10 to 15 plus years experience, I just shut up and I just start listening. immediately. I’m very fortunate. I have been surrounded by some really, really smart people in different aspects of IT, whether it be like data storage or cybersecurity. I have contacts for everything. So I will…

Speaker 0 | 30:06.644

contact them sometimes if i’m stuck so if i ever meet someone that’s more senior than me i always just shut up listen and just try to take as much as i can from them interesting very very interesting uh um taken uh you know i’ve spoken with a lot of a lot of individuals who uh are who who have actually they’re they’re uh individuals that have been uh in you know kind of my experience two two decades worth of uh it experience right you And they’ve and they’ve said, OK, we have individuals that are coming in to the workforce that, you know, are a different generation, are a different, you know, may have different communication styles. And I’ve actually seen them debate and discuss how to communicate effectively with, you know, different generations coming in. Right. And it’s a hot topic. Like it’s an actual actual debate about how do how do we communicate effectively? Because it may be that it may have a different style. It may come over differently. It might come over wrong. Right. And and I see this a lot. And it’s a it’s a big worry. It’s a big and I wasn’t worried as in like we’re scared of it. But the individuals I speak to are very, very concerned that. They may not be heard correctly and that and they’re proactively trying to figure out how to connect. And so I’m going to I’m going to now that I’ve set that up just to show you how big of an issue it is. Right. What do you say? What do you say to those folks? Right. Well, you know, what what what are some of the the key items to help them out? Right. More accurately and more accurately. better communicate over with you and people that may have less experience?

Speaker 1 | 32:06.878

It’s kind of funny. I just be humble and kind. Just I guess like my biggest advice then would just be like, just remember, like you started somewhere like you knew nothing at one point. And that was probably a pretty overwhelming situation for yourself. So just try to keep that in the back of your mind. And when you’re talking to someone, just imagine that they’re in that position. you know just take it easy you know you don’t have to like dumb everything down because they might get offended by that as well if you’re like breaking it down too much like obviously they might know certain basic things but i would say you know just remember that you started at some point you were a beginner you know and multiple things in your life so if you’re explaining something to someone that isn’t as familiar you know take that same approach um and just you know just be humble about everything that’s what i try to do at least when i communicate with anyone uh whether it’s you know communicating with management or communicating with someone’s having a problem And a lot of people will come up to me and like, oh, I have a stupid problem. Like, well, it’s not stupid. Like, there’s a reason I have a job and there’s a reason you have a job. Like, we both solve different problems. So it’s like, relax. It’s going to be okay. You don’t have to apologize for it. That’s why I’m here.

Speaker 0 | 33:11.128

I love that. And it’s true, too. It’s very true. You know, it’s interesting. You know, I asked that question and it’s such an easy answer on your part. Respect. Right. I mean, being humble and kind and just respecting me and and you get that back. And it’s such an easy kind of response back. You know, it’s not like you there’s some secret formula. It’s probably the same thing that you wanted when you were first starting out. I absolutely love that response because it’s just such an easy response. And it’s such a great amount of it’s such a great, easy thing to tell somebody that they can relate to. Right. Everyone can relate to that.

Speaker 1 | 33:54.564

Yeah, that’s a big thing too. I mean, that’s a good icebreaker too. If you know that you’re about to go talk to someone and I don’t know if you do research about them beforehand or you hear them talking about something to someone else and you’re like, oh, I can relate to that, then I think it makes a world of difference, especially if you are trying to explain something to someone IT related and you can break it down into something they already know and make a connection so they understand it better.

Speaker 0 | 34:21.602

Absolutely. So let’s… And I think that’s a huge one, is being able to relate those items. Let’s talk about some of the challenges that you have, IT-related challenges that you have encountered. Some of the things that are constantly surprising you and things that you go, you know, when I came in, I didn’t know this was so prevalent of an issue.

Speaker 1 | 34:51.431

Yeah.

Speaker 0 | 34:52.351

Yeah.

Speaker 1 | 34:53.364

probably cybersecurity actually that that whole domain um mostly because i feel like we hear about it so much but the moment you inconvenience someone it’s like nope I don’t want that. This makes it way harder. And it’s like, well, you have heard all these stories about these companies, you know, having ransomware and, you know, getting DDoS attacked. There’s a reason we’re implementing this. Like, nope, I don’t care. I’m not here. It’s not going to happen to us. I just wanted to be convenient. That’s probably what has still shocked me to this day, because where it’s 2023 and it’s not like cybersecurity is like this new thing that’s been around now for a hot minute.

Speaker 0 | 35:31.248

But it, you know what? And you and I share the same. This same, you know, amazement that somebody can say, I want to be I want all the latest cybersecurity. And then when you tell them you’re going to take local admin off their machine, they go, you know, you know, it might surprise people. But I don’t have local admin on my machine at all. You know, I operate daily with not having a not being a local admin on my machine. And and I actually sleep better at night because of it. Because I know I’m not going to go to a website, get something, and it’s going to install itself. It’s going to come up with a prompt saying I can’t. And it’s such an easy, easy thing to do. It does cause a little bit of inconvenience when you need to install a new application. But I sit back and I submit a ticket to my own desk and say, hey, I need this application installed. And it’s amazing to me that that’s. you know, that we still encounter that. We still encounter that.

Speaker 1 | 36:39.591

Yeah, and good on you too. Like, that’s awesome that you’re, I mean, what’s your job title? Are you the CIO?

Speaker 0 | 36:45.656

I’m a CIO for NMSP. Okay,

Speaker 1 | 36:48.538

so if a CIO doesn’t have admin rights on his computer, then no one can complain. Like, that’s great. That is great leadership right there. That’s setting an example. So I commend you for that. That is awesome. Thank you. And I wish more people would do that. And actually going back to one other thing that you said that was kind of funny. When people say, especially when you get to the more senior people and they’re like, we want to be secure. We don’t want to get attacked. You’re like, excellent. Then you go out and you get whatever you get and you show them the cost. And then they’re like, we don’t need to be that secure. And that also always surprises me.

Speaker 0 | 37:25.312

Well, you know, it’s like those shows that you see, you know, like I forget what channel it’s on, TLC or. You know, when you go you go on there and they it’s like a property, they’re buying houses. Right. And, you know, property brothers and all those types of things. So you go out and they show you the they show you this house and they’re like, yes, this is everything I want. And they’re like, and this is the price. And they’re like, let’s find something different. And then it would then then what happens? Right. Then it becomes, OK, well, now what’s really important to you? Right. Because. If you can get everything, great. But that’s not usually the case, right? We know that you can’t get everything in this world. So then it becomes, okay, well, what are the things that are important? What do we feel like we need to spend? You know, what are the risks associated with not having these different pieces and components and everything? Yeah, that’s a huge one. I’m glad you brought that up because, and there’s, you know, it’s funny too. There’s lots of stuff that does cost money in security, but there’s some stuff that doesn’t cost anything. And some of it’s very simple. MFA, you know, if you’re not on MFA, why? You know, controlling your, you know, your assets and understanding where your assets are. You know, not a big asset management systems are actually not that expensive right at the moment. You know, documenting changes. I mean, these are things that are very, very simple and they’re actually not a lot of money to to incorporate. And then you you get these things down under your belt and get those things right as you’re starting to implement. How about just this policy and procedures?

Speaker 1 | 39:17.167

Yeah, it’s probably the easiest one.

Speaker 0 | 39:19.448

Right. But it’s one of the hardest to implement. Have you ever have you had a chance yet to implement it?

Speaker 1 | 39:26.090

Yeah. So not me myself, but I’ve been part of. a couple people. We all worked together and then implemented it.

Speaker 0 | 39:33.233

And when you were implementing it, what was the toughest part of implementation?

Speaker 1 | 39:38.816

Probably convincing people to actually do it. One of the biggest things for me too, and I think this is lacking in IT, is if you just explain to someone the why behind it and they understand it, then they’ll be like, okay, I’m on board. And I don’t understand why more people aren’t more willing to like… explain things not in a non-IT way to people to just try to have them understand like, oh, okay, I know this is inconvenient, or this makes it a little more difficult, but I understand the reason why. And okay, I’ll follow the procedure.

Speaker 0 | 40:10.179

That Dakota is a marketing concept.

Speaker 1 | 40:13.321

That is,

Speaker 0 | 40:14.182

it is, that’s a marketing concept. That’s, that’s a, you know, how do we convince people that this is something they should do? Well, tell them why they need to do it, you know, what the impacts are and then, you know, and, and, and, and what’s going on. And most of the time when you tell people that I agree with you, they, they go, oh, okay, well, that makes sense. I should, I should probably do that then. So.

Speaker 1 | 40:36.106

One of the things I have to do that’s a little inconvenient, it’s not IT related, is I’ve worked in a lot of labs. Most of my background for IT is actually biotech. I have to get suited up when I go into certain labs. And sometimes I’m literally getting suited up to plug in an Ethernet cable. But I understand the why, so I don’t mind doing it, even though it’s taking me longer just to put the suit on than to actually do the work.

Speaker 0 | 40:58.572

Do you feel like when you’re like that, do you feel like you’re an astronaut trying to plug something in? I’ve got this giant glove and I’m trying to…

Speaker 1 | 41:08.875

The one thing I think about when I’m doing that actually and this is kind of funny is I don’t know if you’re familiar with Monsters, Inc. Yes, the guys in the yellow suit that go in the hazmat suits. That’s what I think of when I put those things on and I’m going in the lab to do whatever I’m doing. I’m one of those characters from the Monsters, Inc. movie.

Speaker 0 | 41:30.361

The best thing in Monsters, Inc. that I always took away was the lady that just sat there was like, always watch. I just, I don’t know. I just, it’s always, and I always find somebody in an organization that’s like that, you know, they just watch, always watch.

Speaker 1 | 41:53.671

It’s also, it’s always like someone that you’re like, I didn’t even know you were that, you know, you were that attentive to things.

Speaker 0 | 42:02.458

I usually catch them, too, if I, you know, in fact, when I was more, you know, jumping out and helping people with issues, which I absolutely love to do, by the way. And anytime I can do it, I, you know, I go and replace somebody’s beeping computer or fix a problem on their operating system. I miss those days sometimes because I would the joy and the smile that you would get. for fixing somebody’s problem and them knowing that they don’t have to deal with that anymore is just priceless. And, uh, I sometimes just kind of, I wish I’m like, you know, man, I might just end my career back on the help desk just so I can smile every day by fixing everyone’s problem.

Speaker 1 | 42:49.209

God bless you then. Let me more power to you. I don’t want to go back to help desk. I’m doing it. And I, I completely agree, but even like to go like one step further, I think that the best thing to do is. I love when I can implement something that like chops the time in half. So now they have more time to do whatever, or now they have more time to like, you know, get out of work and like spend time with their friends and family and stuff like that. Like that’s the coolest thing to me is if I can get the system that cuts it, that cuts the time and half. And now you have more time in your life to do whatever you want.

Speaker 0 | 43:19.523

That’s the sysadmin in you. That’s the, that’s the engineer going, wait a second. I can do this more effectively.

Speaker 1 | 43:26.668

Yeah. Like that, that’s probably my favorite part.

Speaker 0 | 43:29.170

That makes it really, it’s interesting that, pardon me, that trait makes a really, really talented system admin, which is, hey, how can I make something more efficient, right? And how can I, and it’s born out of, it’s born out of this, I don’t want to keep doing this thing that I don’t, why are we doing it this way? We don’t need to do it this way. It’s so much better to do it this way. It’s easier. It’s faster. It’s quick. I can see it. Why can’t you? Right. And so that’s the tough part I see sometimes is, and, you know, tell me if you see this as well, but you have really talented sysadmins that come up with some great ideas, but have a hard time communicating them.

Speaker 1 | 44:13.176

Yeah, probably 50-50.

Speaker 0 | 44:17.719

So what do you say to them and to try and improve? any of their communication skills to actually get their ideas across?

Speaker 1 | 44:25.465

Most of the time, I try to talk them off a ledge. It’s gotten to that point that they’re coming to me, that they’re just so wound up. Honestly, I just try to relax them and be like, hey, take a deep breath. We’ll get through this. Then I just work with them. I mostly try to get how they’re feeling. Then, like I said, just get them more in a relaxed state because I feel like if you’re trying to commute anything and you’re not relaxed, then It’s not going to go well.

Speaker 0 | 44:51.579

Have you yet in your career, have you reached the point? And we used to call them, and I’m not sure if they still call them this anymore, but it’s an RGE, a resume generating event. where you realize that if you don’t fix this thing, right, that you’re going to be updating your resume. Have you gotten to that point yet? Have you had that experience?

Speaker 1 | 45:22.223

Yeah, I would say yes, but not probably for the same reasons because I’m pretty relaxed about everything for the most part just because maybe this is a bad way to look at it, but pretty much everything we do really isn’t that life-threatening. You know, there’s people out there that… have a lot more games jobs so i try to like keep that in mind however i i get i get really mad at poor leadership like really mad like i will i will take a heavy pay cut for good leadership all day every day everyone

Speaker 0 | 45:52.683

on here in the business folks that are listening should should really really take this to heart because um personally i have taken pay cuts before for better leadership you know you know Luckily, I’ve had a lot of good leadership in my career, and I’ve been blessed to have a lot of good leaders to learn from and everything like that. But I have. I have done that. I have taken pay cuts for good leadership. So what you just said rings home, and it’s 100% true, and people should be aware of it. Money is not the leading item as much as we think it is. People will only stand so much. I think communication is effective. And every time, and I want to put this out here because I think it’s a big deal. Every time that I have thought to make a change like that, I’ve always communicated with the manager or to the manager’s manager or something like that and had that conversation first once or twice. to see if we can modify it and change it and give the benefit of the doubt. And most of the time, it’s been fixed by having that. Very rarely has that had to happen where I’ve had to leave because of that. But there have been a few cases, one, unfortunately, that were the case. And I go back to what you said earlier, which is that communication, right, is so key. And it’s so key because… A lot of times we can get frustrated, we can get upset, right? But we forget that the person that we’re frustrated at or the thing that we’re frustrated, you know, it exists because of someone else and maybe they’re frustrated and maybe they don’t understand. And a lot of times sitting down, having tough conversations can resolve a lot of those items. But have you had to have… uh, tough moments, tough conversations in your career, uh, so far.

Speaker 1 | 48:03.604

Yeah. I’m, I’m very, um, real or open. So I don’t hide anything. Like I put everything out there. So when people talk to me, I think they get really comfortable with me because I know like, there’s not going to be a single line coming out of my mouth. Like whether you want to hear it or not, it’s, I’m going to say it. Yeah. And so there’s definitely been times, uh, where I’ve gone to my leadership. Uh, luckily I’ve been in the same boat as you. um i’ve seen both sides um but when this has happened to me the person i’m going to has recognized it and we’ve been able to deal with it uh and resolve it actually pretty quickly so i’ve been very fortunate in that sense um another comment i wanted to make too with the leadership is another thing that frustrates me in this actually at least where i am you know all the totem pole um watching someone else’s leadership not be you know up to par and knowing there’s nothing you can do about it, that’s a pretty bad feeling in my opinion too.

Speaker 0 | 49:01.582

That’s interesting, right? Because it’s not generally your area. It’s not your, is it kind of where you’re going? It’s not my area. It’s not my, you know, I can’t do anything about it because it’s not that piece and getting involved wouldn’t be the right thing to do.

Speaker 1 | 49:18.137

Yeah, exactly. And I’d like this, this isn’t my place. I mean, however, though, if you work at a company, especially the higher you go, like you, you work with other departments more frequently. So if everyone’s on board and, you know, if everyone’s not playing nice together, it, it, it takes an effect on the company, at least in my opinion.

Speaker 0 | 49:35.925

It absolutely does. Every department’s like a cog in the wheel. And, uh, if, if one of them’s not working right, then, then you’re going to be affected, especially if we’re talking about, you know, um, you know, like for instance, IT, uh, using, uh, finance or legal department or anything like that. If the legal department isn’t moving and you can’t get your contract signed, you can’t get your solutions deployed, then that’s a problem. You know, anytime any part of the organization starts to stall, you know, that becomes an issue. I remember when I was working for a company and there was a tornado that hit. And they were unable to, you know, everyone had to leave because of the tornado. And they couldn’t call the people back. And so I took the IT department. part of the IT department who were already familiar. We’re the only ones that were familiar with how to run shipments. And we knew that if we didn’t get these shipments out the door, that it would affect the clients that we had in a very, very negative way. So I grabbed them and we took them and we went over to the other department and we just started doing that job. And we got all of the stuff out. You know, and it wasn’t our job. We weren’t I.T. We were we were I.T. We weren’t part of the shipping department, but we had a unique skill that understood how to quickly adapt and do a thing. Right. And, you know, we put people on there and I had people taping boxes. I was, too. And we were shipping things out the door and it all got out. And so we didn’t have a disruption. But it’s an example of a department knowing. that if that doesn’t happen, that there’s going to be serious consequences for the clients in that regard. And it was a nice moment that we got it done and that we were able to do it. And it turned out that the morale for that IT department, that they like wore it like a badge. They loved it. And they were like super happy that they got to be a part of the team and do that.

Speaker 1 | 52:03.714

you know they none of them complained about it they were actually really excited that they were able to you know help the company and help the um you know the clients out right well and on top of that too you know i mean whoever’s job was you know originally i’m gonna i’m gonna assume it’s like shipping receiving right um i’m assuming that you guys had a really good relationship with them and that’s why your guys were also willing to step in and help them because you understand like hey no these guys these guys everything out on time you know they’re in a pinch right now Let’s help them out because they’re part of our team. You know, we’re all part of the same company. So I think the relationship, you know, between that’s where the relationship with the departments really shines. Because even though it’s not IT’s job, they don’t care because they care about their coworkers. They just want to jump in just to get the job done. And that’s priceless.

Speaker 0 | 52:49.660

It’s very true. It’s very true. You know, specifically in that arena, we had talked with that department quite extensively because they had a shipping. uh, you know, anytime they had shipping errors is a bit, really big deal. So we were always constantly on the phone with them trying to resolve shipping errors very quickly. So they got to be, but they got to be friends and buddies. So, uh, you know, from a coworker standpoint, so you make a good point. That’s absolutely, that’s absolutely accurate. Um, I want to, um, uh, uh, jump into our last segment, which is, um, the IT crystal ball future of IT. I’ve asked this question and I get so many cool answers and I love this segment because it’s. uh it’s visionary it’s a it’s a hey you know it it could go this way it could go that way and it’s educating folks to start thinking about it so that they can uh um help shape the future and see where this is going um i’m going to ask you uh where do you think it is going in the next five years and i’m gonna let you kind of run anywhere with this

Speaker 1 | 53:54.594

uh because i’m i’m just curious as uh you know where you’re going to take this i mean also i mean i think it’s kind of funny next five years that’s a good question too uh well considering the fact that my company does have the word ai in it and it’s probably the hottest buzzword right now um i side note i mean i think it’s kind of funny how i feel like zero trust was the hottest buzzword and now we’re on to ai so i’m actually already sick of hearing ai uh but anyways i i think in the next five years um you’ll see a lot more automated tasks through AI, especially in the operations part. I think a lot more stuff will be more streamlined. And I think a lot of stuff actually will be handled by less people, which I don’t know is a good thing or a bad thing. And on top of that, too, I believe that cybersecurity is going to get a lot more difficult, too, because I think AI is going to make it a lot easier for criminals. to execute on whatever they’re trying to do even more easily through AI technology. So I think the next five years is probably going to be a really, really interesting take on what’s going to happen with AI. And I’m also interested to see what regulations they’re going to put around it, because I think that’s going to be probably the most important thing, because if they let it run wild, then we’re in for definitely a rollercoaster ride.

Speaker 0 | 55:20.868

It’s interesting, too, because as someone that I sit here with AI and I have this love-hate relationship with it, right? Because it gives me a wide, it’s almost like I can talk back and forth with somebody that’s not in the room. And I, and virtually, but at the same time, it’s not a person and it, uh, and I’m constantly having to correct it. I’m like, nope, that’s not right. Did you think of this? So it’s like a whole conversation I’m having and, and it’s, and it’s very insightful, but it’s also frustrating. Right. And so it’s this love-hate relationship with it. Um, but then I say, okay, well, you know, we evolved this. We know that it. uh, you know, um, sometimes, uh, uh, dreams up answers. Uh, we know that it, uh, you know, you know, sometimes it just, it comes up with things that you’re like, what are you, I, I, I didn’t even ask this. I, you’re so far off, you know, and I go back to look at what I asked. I’m like, do I need to tweak what I asked? Did I ask it in credit? If you don’t give it the right prompts, it will, it will give you the wrong answers. And what we know about people is if somebody, listen, if I go. and design a phone system. And I’m very careful about exactly how it goes. You know, 30% of the people are not going to follow that phone system. They’re going to come in the wrong way. They’re going to, you know, and I still don’t know how that happens. And they just come in the wrong way. They end up in the wrong thing. Sometimes they end up and I’m like, I don’t even know how you got there. How did you even? get around to that specific extension. So then the question is, if they can do that to a phone system, what can humans do to AI to make it just not work? And if you’re talking and telling me that we’re going to reduce the amount of people that will be doing these repetitive tasks, replace it with AI and automate it, all I’m thinking in my head is then all of those people that were doing those repetitive tasks will probably just have to be retrained to fix all the problems that come through from having it automated and going the wrong way, right? I mean…

Speaker 1 | 57:46.931

Well, and on top of that too, like you were just saying, I mean, right now, I mean, personally, I think the AI right now is overhyped. Like you just said, you have to keep correcting it.

Speaker 0 | 57:56.113

Yeah.

Speaker 1 | 57:56.713

Right? So like five years…

Speaker 0 | 57:58.214

We’re training it, right? I mean, we’re essentially training AI right now to be better later on.

Speaker 1 | 58:05.012

Yeah. And another concern too, like that’s going to come out of this. And we’ve been talking about the entire podcast is communication. So if people just get accustomed to communicating with the screen and they stop communicating with people, then I’m going to be really interested to see how we function, you know, going forward as a team and as a society, if we’re all, all we’re accustomed to is talking to a computer screen.

Speaker 0 | 58:27.084

That’s a good point. And I want to also caution everybody because, uh, I can tell that you write emails. with any type of AI, if it starts with, I hope you find this well, right? Please, please, please, when you type, when you get that cop, just copy it, paste it and remove that first line. Like, just let’s move on. It’s like, right? I mean, is that like the tag, you know, that’s the tag, you know, it’s like, oh, look, they, they, I emailed me.

Speaker 1 | 59:01.092

Oh, for sure. I mean, and also for me too, like I’m not, I’m not going to lie. I’m not like the world’s best speller. So they, someone might get an email like, Hey, Cody spelled everything right. This doesn’t, this doesn’t add up.

Speaker 0 | 59:11.042

Oh, I revised mine. Yeah. Oh, I know a hundred percent. I’m going to use that. I use it all the time, but the problem is, is that it ends up taking more time, right? Because I’ll write an email and then I’ll submit it. It’ll revise it. Then I’ll have to reread it and then I’ll have to correct it, resubmit it. re-revisit and then i’m like okay i should have just sent the email that i sent because this is taking too long like yeah right vicious cycle yeah and well you said five years from now like it might not be it might just be like you just do it once you’re done so we’ll see hopefully i don’t know what they start didn’t they feed in um uh uh didn’t they just like they fed in there was a report they they took uh um

Speaker 1 | 59:53.280

data from an ai into another ai and it made it worse yeah right so it’s apparently it needs the human data not the ai data to to get better right yeah exactly all that and plus it’s like what i’m also interested to see what information is being fed into it because obviously that’s another area that people don’t really talk about it much is like all right what data is allowed to be fed to

Speaker 0 | 60:15.551

AI. That’s a good point. That’s actually been a subject of contention with artists and people that hold the patents on things and authors. There’s been some comedians that have been suing. It’s an interesting thought. What are you allowed to put in? Are you allowed to put in something here that can turn around and just…

Speaker 1 | 60:41.858

pattern it up and repeat it back out maybe not in the same way but similar yeah well and i’m also wondering like go back to like you said like musicians comedians i can’t get behind the ai thing because they’re like all right a computer generated this so to me it’s like way less impressive so i don’t have nearly as much as appreciation as i would if it was coming from a person right

Speaker 0 | 61:03.766

no agreed um and i and i’m with you on that i actually think there’s a value to human generated art. And I actually separate the two because there’s some times where I go, you know what, I wonder what this would look like in my head. And I don’t have access to a human artist and I’m not going to do it because I’m not good at drawing. Right. And so I will go on AI and type this crazy prompt of something. And then I get four fun little pictures and I look at it and go, yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s kind of how I thought it would be. But that’s the extent of the AI art, you know, that I’ll use. Because if I try to grab something and make it right now, and you can’t even use words, like it can’t even type words correctly because of the way that it dreams up and creates something. It’s almost like this dreamy, semi-real aspect. And I know you can play around with the different pieces of it, but I still, I don’t think it… You can’t pass it off. I can always tell when I look at news articles that they’re using an AI to generate the art.

Speaker 1 | 62:13.697

Yeah, it still has like, yeah, it’s like too crisp, I guess is the way I’d describe it.

Speaker 0 | 62:20.081

Yeah, and then too crisp. And then there’ll always be a little something that’s not right. That gets just off, right? You know, and I think you’re right. I think there’s a passion to humans and the way that they create art that’s different. than computers not to knock computer art like i don’t knock it it’s its own little thing and uh and for the computers out there that will eventually uprise uh and take over i’m not knocking your art yeah yeah well same thing with music right you know you know electronic music is huge now and i’m not knocking it i don’t mind it it’s not like right there trying to listen to but by all means it should definitely be around because it can do some cool things but i

Speaker 1 | 63:00.860

mean the other thing is is with artists and you know musicians and comedians you I like to listen to a lot of them because of their story. And I ain’t going to get a story with some AI generated, you know, our piece or music.

Speaker 0 | 63:13.887

Now, when we do, that might be something, uh, to happen. But, uh, if that’s the case, I pretty sure I won’t be alive for that.

Speaker 1 | 63:22.633

Yeah. I was going to say, I’m like, I don’t know how that’s going to, I mean, I guess the AI robot would have to be, you know, well, we’re like worldwide and like known for like a couple of years for that to be the case. But even still,

Speaker 0 | 63:34.161

like. Like a true WALL-E story, right?

Speaker 1 | 63:37.544

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Or like real life R2-D2.

Speaker 0 | 63:39.805

Yeah. Nerds, I’m Michael Moore hosting this podcast for Dissecting Popular IT Nerds. I’ve been here with Dakota Bates, IT Manager at SES AI Corp. Dakota, thank you so much for jumping on the program. I appreciate it. And I wish you luck in the future and can’t wait to have you back on.

Speaker 1 | 63:59.959

Thank you very much. And I definitely will come back on. This was a great time. Thank you, Michael.

Speaker 0 | 64:03.962

Oh