Speaker 0 | 00:06.277

Welcome everyone back to Dissecting Popular IT Nerds. Really, very actually excited today. We have Jessica Yeo. I did this correct, right? I didn’t screw this up again because I’m very paranoid. I have a little bit of health. Okay, okay. You are, I don’t want to say like kind of a big deal. You just, I mean, you really are a big deal and we rarely have women on the show. Because for whatever reason, I’m very chauvinistic and I just don’t like women. That’s why we don’t have them on the show. No, of course, that’s not true. Of course, that’s not true. There’s a massive shortage of women in the, I guess you would call it IT leadership space, technology leadership space. So I’ll just let you fire off as to why is that? Or is it just because women are cooler than guys? And back in the day, it was all… It was all nerds and dorks that were stuck in the computer room doing computers and stuff. Like, what is it? Like, why is there not so many women? Did we just get, again, was it just, you know, the nerds that just got a head start? And then all of a sudden we’re like, hey, you know, this is a real job. So we’re going to take over now. What is it?

Speaker 1 | 01:16.228

You know, that’s a very interesting question. I remember when I first joined Cummins, the only other person that’s a woman on my team of 30 people is a program manager. I can tell you there were so many times I… I mean, meetings. And you realize that the women on the same team is either a program manager or business analyst. It’s me too, seriously. So I checked the data. You know, I was just, oh, I’m coming to this podcast. Maybe I should check the data. And I began to realize that the recent studies have said only 47.7% of working-age women is even working. You know, when it comes to how many percent of women that actually have comm science degrees, 16%. Wow, that’s very few. So the odds of having the women in tech and tech chief women in tech is even fewer, isn’t it? Just by the sheer numbers of who the number they’re working and the numbers that even took a comm science or some kind of technical engineering degree. 16 to 20 plus percent.

Speaker 0 | 02:29.589

I think it’s realistically, and this is over-exaggerating it. This would be, is less than 5%. So 95% of the industry is men. And I think that that’s, I think that that’s a, an understatement. I think it’s actually higher, more like 98% or 97. It’s something, it’s something insane. So you are not that I believe in like mythical creatures, but you are that you are a unicorn. You are a unicorn of this industry. And not only that, you worked for, I mean, Cummins, which is no small company by any means. And I mean, I just think diesel engines when I think that. So you’re like the diesel engine of women in tech. I like nicknames and fight names. So if you had a fight name, you’d be like, you know, Jessica.

Speaker 1 | 03:24.760

The thing that, you know, not just diesel engine, nowadays we have the modern stuff, into sustainability, hydrogen and all those fancy fuel cell and batteries and stuff that maybe the guys usually talk about. But I’m very proud to work for Cummins, to have worked for Cummins. Our CEO is the first woman and she’s so credible. She’s an engineer herself. And I would say she’s absolutely a unicorn in my mind. You know, she has an engineering background. And then she actually has the ability to lead an entire organization as the CEO of the company. Why is it so few? I think a lot of it in my mind, culturally, you know, I came from, I’m Asian, you know, so I came from a Chinese culture. My dad is so traditional. So my mom literally spent time serving me. He doesn’t do the housework. My dad doesn’t do the housework. And there are many, you know, that I’ve met as well that had the mentality, you know, that women shouldn’t be leaders in an organization. Women should not be a leader, you know, that or they should be working at home. You know, they should be housewives. Even in my own family, I still meet people within the U.S. itself that thinks that, well, they should be homeschooling. They should not be pursuing a career out there. It still happens.

Speaker 0 | 04:48.500

So why homeschooling? Why, why do you bring up homeschooling? And I only say that because I homeschool all my kids. Cause I’m, I myself am very conservative. No, no,

Speaker 1 | 04:56.853

I am like somewhere.

Speaker 0 | 04:58.984

What people don’t know is, I mean, what people do know is, I mean, I do have eight children. I do homeschool them all because I, quite frankly, I just don’t believe in the values that are being pumped down the throats of children in school. I just, I just couldn’t do it anymore. Just couldn’t do it. So I’m a very conservative person at heart. I do think there are different roles that men and women play in society outside of just kind of a work environment. I mean, you know, if, if you’re wicked smart and you’re an engineer and. you know, you’re going to like build company networks and whatever you do and you have that mindset, you know, great. But I don’t think that that should take away from, you know, any family values or maybe conservative values that you have. I don’t, I don’t think like you, I mean, I don’t know your family values. I mean, do you find it anything wrong with conservative family values or the way that you were brought up in this kind of like comparison from, you know, the latter days to today and all that type of stuff? Just curious.

Speaker 1 | 05:57.268

No, not at all. In fact, I think each individual should decide what’s right for them. Yeah. And I mentioned homeschooling because in my family, you know, I have my sibling that doesn’t work. Not because they did not have a bachelor’s degree or they’re not qualified, but they made an intentional choice that they are going to homeschool, you know, because she and her husband agreed that that’s the role she should be playing. So I think if it’s right for them, I’m nowhere close to wanting to judge anybody.

Speaker 0 | 06:34.073

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 | 06:34.833

If it’s right for them, I think it’s good.

Speaker 0 | 06:37.835

Great. So let’s get back to how you became a rocket scientist, practically. How did you get into this role? Like, how did that happen? I got to know.

Speaker 1 | 06:46.542

It’s intentional. That’s the intentional part that I like to talk about. So when I, I don’t know why it’s just in me. you know, possibly because I came from Singapore and I always grew up with the understanding that, well, we don’t have natural resources. We are a small, tiny country. The most important resource we have is labor. So while I was growing up, I see myself that, yep, you know, I need to work hard. I need to strive for excellence. I need to strive to be the best that I can be. And as I go, you know, when I first started, I said, well, you know, I was working for this academic company.

Speaker 0 | 07:25.804

You might have to, I got to interrupt you from time to time because I have a certain mindset and I’m very curious. I’m very curious. No worries. Are you a competitive person at all? Like, were you competitive with other kids in classes and stuff? I have a feeling you might be.

Speaker 1 | 07:38.408

I like to be on the top, but at some point, you know, I understand I have limits too. You know, you can go.

Speaker 0 | 07:43.570

Did you get in any fights with other, did you get in any fights with other girls as you climbed your way to the top of?

Speaker 1 | 07:49.988

I get along with people well, actually,

Speaker 0 | 07:51.809

who will be surprised. Okay, no, I mean, it’s a good question to ask. I don’t know. Maybe it has nothing to do with that at all. Be like, hey, the reason, no, I didn’t get into any fights at all. The reason why I was so successful was because we work together. At Dissecting Popular IT Nerds, we expect to win, and we expect our IT directors to win. And one of those areas where we know that we can help you win is internet service providers. As an IT director tasked with managing internet connectivity, Few vendor relationships can prove more painfully frustrating than the one with your internet service provider. The array of challenges seems never ending from unreliable uptime and insufficient bandwidth to poor customer service and hidden fees. It’s like getting stuck in rush hour traffic. Dealing with ISPs can try once patients even on the best of days. So whether you are managing one location or a hundred locations, our back office support team. and vendor partners are the best in the industry. And the best part about this is none of this will ever cost you a dime due to the partnership and the sponsors that we have behind the scenes at Dissecting Popular IT Nerds. Let us show you how we can manage away the mediocrity and hit it out of the park. We start by mapping all of the available fiber routes, and we use our $1.2 billion in combined customer buying power and massive economy of scale to map. all of your locations, to overcome construction fees, to use industry historical data, to encourage providers to compete for the lowest possible pricing, to negotiate the lowest rates guaranteed, and to provide fast response times in hours, not days. And we leverage aggregators and wholesale relationship to ensure you get the best possible pricing available in the marketplace. And on top of all of this, you get proactive network monitoring and proactive alerts. so that you’re not left calling 1-800-GO-POUND-SAN to enter in a ticket number and wonder, why is my internet connection down? In short, we are the partner that you have always wanted, who understands your needs, your frustrations, and knows what you need without you having to ask. So, we’re still human, but we are some of the best, and we aim to win. This all starts with a value discovery call where we find out what you have, why you have it, and what’s on your roadmap. All you need to do is email. visit internet at popularit.net and say, I want help managing all of my internet garbage. Please make my life easier and we’ll get right on it for you. Have a wonderful day. Okay. So anyways, onward. I just had to ask. You never know.

Speaker 1 | 10:27.193

Oh yeah. No, I don’t get into fights. You know, I was in a girls school at one point and maybe that also, you know, enabled me to just focus on studies. Well, growing up as a teenager, I… I definitely have the value of hard work. Maybe that’s part of Chinese culture. Part of our culture is that you got to work hard. I’m not saying that Americans are lazy or do not have the same mindset, but it’s ingrained in me that it’s important to work hard. I study hard. My mom never had to worry about me not studying. And then as I continue to go into the actual working world, I find myself always asking myself the question, what is next. I was working for the company that I realized, hey, you know, they’re using a programming language nobody has ever heard of. Somehow within me, I was looking at that, well, Oracle’s hot. What else is hot at the time? You know, what programming language is hot at the time? I decided that, no, I need to find a job, somehow get out of this job with the programming language and technology nobody has ever heard of to go do something. that somebody has ever heard of.

Speaker 0 | 11:39.593

Okay. So, okay. So programming language, you had to leave to go learn. Yeah, you had to go leave to learn, to take it to the next level.

Speaker 1 | 11:49.541

Absolutely. Because it was a renewable contract. I decided to become a developer at that time, you know, learning Oracle, never done it before. Learning graphical user interfaces, building, you know, app applications, never had experience before. Go through the hard. grind of really learning something you really do not know and being part of a research and technology organization, you know, at a different company. At some point, I asked myself the question, if you have done that, what else are you going to do? You know, when you have been a programmer and you decided that’s not what you want to do, then what is the next step? I decided that it’s time to learn more about design. I got a flavor of it in my previous jobs early in my career. It’s time to learn more about design. I was talking to people. The recruiters were asking me at that time, have you led the team? So I’m like, oh yeah, I haven’t led a team. Maybe I should try leading a team. And so when the next opportunity came up, they said, well, you know, we’re going to let you lead a development team. I’m like, that sounds awesome. I’m always leveraging something that I’ve already done and doing a free, you know, even when I’m not mostly comfortable to just go do something I’ve never done before. They carry forward in the next, you know, 20 plus years as I come to the U.S. I have always been like that. When I’ve actually done something, I will always seek for what else do I need to learn? What else do I need to grow? I give myself the chance to experience what I’ve never done before so that I can discover whether I like it or not. And then at the same time, you know, continue to pursue something that I find that ultimately that’s where my passion lies. That’s why I’ve been in architecture for 15 years, because I realized I love the process of problem solving, helping an organization grow their capabilities, you know, by intentionally architecting what they need to be able to meet the business outcomes.

Speaker 0 | 13:51.552

How long did it take you to learn programming, graphical user interfaces, application development?

Speaker 1 | 13:57.877

I would say I had the application background. even though those languages were not worth learning. It’s the aptitude of being able to think in terms of logic, right? You know, a lot of application is about logic and it’s about being able to structure your program and in logical sense to deliver whatever the function needs to be. So because I had a computer science background, it wasn’t that hard, but I did struggle with Being able to think in terms of object-oriented way of things and being able to think in terms of when you click on this, this is what action is supposed to happen. I would say it took me, well, I don’t know, at least six months or a year, you know, to become actually better at it. You know, when it comes to GUI kind of programming, using like Visual Basic and Power Builder at that time, you know, because it takes time. But with some programming background, I think it did help me.

Speaker 0 | 14:57.931

Let’s go. Okay, so six months. Now, now all of a sudden, well, hey, now we want you to lead a team. What was that like managing humans? different emotions and different things that are going on all the time. Like, did you run into things that you weren’t prepared for?

Speaker 1 | 15:15.775

Interesting question. I think managing humans is different. And I find myself trying to understand how do I fight for what they need? You know, maybe sometimes I always see how my previous managers have supported me. And I began to realize that the ability to support your staff is actually one of the most important things. Other than just helping them with their work and making sure that they get their work done. I can’t say that I was perfect at that time. I was a new manager. But at that time, I had the opportunity to lead people that… were deemed to be the underdogs on the team. I’ve heard of that before. What happened is everybody kind of favored a few of the people on the team, but then you begin to realize that sometimes, you know, you’ve got to give people a chance to potentially shine. I took a chance on people, you know, and I gave some assignments to someone that would otherwise not get the assignment. I’m glad I took some bets. You know, you kind of learn from it that sometimes some of the bets are worthwhile. Because you never know, you could actually get good results and enable someone to grow. I would say, fast forward in the last couple of years, as I take on leadership roles at more senior levels, that’s the greater challenge. Leading a group of just four or five people, I didn’t think that it was that hard. Leading at the senior level is hard.

Speaker 0 | 16:52.621

Why? And I think so. Okay, go.

Speaker 1 | 16:56.091

I can tell you why. It’s because the dynamics are so different. Because at that time, when I was just a manager, a project leader over five people, I only focused on making sure that they get their work done. I support them. But I don’t have to worry about all the politics around what the customer wants, what some of the other leaders want, because my boss was always there. My boss shield me from everything, you know, that could be potentially unpleasant for me as an employee. I didn’t have to deal with that. I used to hear about, yep, the customer wasn’t happy with us, you know, throw the document back at us. I’m like, I wasn’t there. I was very happy I wasn’t there. But as you grow in leadership, you will realize that it’s lonely at the top. And on top of that, you can no longer… longer leverage on the leader to be the shield for you. You are out there having to face everything as the leader of the group.

Speaker 0 | 18:03.203

Yeah.

Speaker 1 | 18:04.184

There is a difference. And you will find that you have to figure out a way to keep yourselves encouraged, to manage your energy levels so that you don’t run out of steam, you know, because you are the leader of the team. You can’t, I can’t just go to the… the senior leader or the CIO or the CDO and say, hey, can you take this for me? More likely than not, you don’t want to do that because you are paid to lead the entire team. It’s different.

Speaker 0 | 18:32.332

Yes. You’re not the only person that has said it’s lonely at the top. It’s something that we hear a lot. It’s actually a request that we’ve had. We’ve had a request when I’ve asked other IT leaders, etc., people that have been on the show. Is there anything that we could provide, you know, behind the scenes, so to speak, that would be beneficial? And yeah, there’s like access to our peers because it’s very lonely at the top. Like I’m the, I have no one to go to. I have no one to go cry to or whatever it is. But so how then, how do you manage those energy levels and burnout levels? Because I can relate and I would love some psychological advice, please.

Speaker 1 | 19:16.374

Sure. Um, I cannot say that I’m perfect in this because I’m still learning from it. One thing I find, you know, in the midst of being so busy with your busy schedules, taking time, um, to meet executives like yourself is actually very important. And I always tell my boss that, you know, I need a support system, intentionally build the relationship and have the support system. I’m not perfect at this. I’m still working progress on that. I have to meet that. So I have to intentionally go to meetings and figure out which ones energizes you. You know, what energizes you? As an example, you know, it energizes me having a nice technical conversation or architecture conversation. That energizes you. Go meet the people that can have those energizing conversations with you. Go figure out which are the peers that you like to connect with more often. Not an easy task. That’s one thing I have to say because a lot of times what ended up happening is they are busy too. They may not want to meet you. But I would say don’t stop trying. Expand your network. Meet with different people. I’ve had people reach out to me as well. I thought it was pretty good that they reached out to me, that I managed to get to know them better and potentially could consider them as part of, you know, my network of people that I can approach.

Speaker 0 | 20:47.692

That’s good. So we got to do a conference, I guess. I guess dissecting popular 18 years, we need to do a conference. We need to do a conference where everyone can meet together and we can talk.

Speaker 1 | 20:56.296

Yeah, I think meeting in person would help. I was hired during the pandemic. It was difficult to build relationships. I think you can only build relationships to a certain point virtually. So I really embrace it. I went to the Women in IT event just the past week. And as part of the Chief Architect Forum, they wanted to form a community. I was leading a virtual group before. I intentionally told them that I don’t want to lead a virtual group anymore. I want an in-person group. And we met last week as well. It’s one of those things where you realize that the in-person communication really enhances the relationship, you know, that you can get to know each other and it could become your support system. That’s what I’m saying. It’s important to intentionally build the support system.

Speaker 0 | 21:48.897

You really got my mind going. I’m being honest. I’m being very, it’s, and it really, I always, I- Because normally you think I get invited to all these conferences, events that are like, just like, eh, they’re like the ones you have to go to or the ones you don’t really want to go to. So, but thinking about the different areas in my life where I’m stressed and, and thinking about what you said about being re-energized or reinvigorated or, you know, like coming back to life again. And, you know, I feel like, I feel like we’ve, we put the. you know, we’re back together again. Like I’ve got like, you know, where you wake up in the morning and like your eyes just pop open, you jump out of bed, you’re happy to get out of bed. Right. It does, it does happen after meeting with fellow peers and you’re all working together, thinking about how can I build something or how can I, you know, how can we, you know, do better in our certain roles or what do we have in common or like, what are your struggles? What are my struggles? How do we overcome these struggles? Or, hey, I see that you guys were able to do this a lot faster and you were very successful in this area. How can I do that also? I don’t know, because we’re smaller, whatever. We’re not as big of a company or whatever. So I think from that standpoint, I need a podcast. I need a podcast group. I don’t know if that exists either. Because right now we’re experiencing this weird neither world of web development where we started out real bootstrapped with our web development. But now we’ve really got to… like have all these applications and AI and scraping data and writing articles and all this stuff. And I can’t, we can’t find anyone that’s not just real amateur for, to get started at $20,000. So like what, we don’t want an amateur web designer. There’s just going to be another me to another me to website and I’m pay you 20,000 just to get started. And then you’re going to nickel and dime me for another 20,000 until we’re at 40 grand for a me to website. No, I can’t happen. So we’re stuck in this weird. And IT and IT leadership and stuff, they don’t really have any, there’s no one that really specializes that I’ve found yet, or even had on the show that’s really good at like web design or something. And there’s just, it’s just kind of like, like weird stepchild in the background that works with marketing is the website, right? I don’t know. I’ll ask you, I’ll ask you, you’re the unicorn. What’s the, do you have any experience with, and by the way, if you haven’t done this yet, here’s your next price. Here’s your next new thing.

Speaker 1 | 24:21.092

What the heck? Go build a website?

Speaker 0 | 24:23.394

Here’s your next new thing. Build a like, you know, award-winning, you know, website that we sell for a billion dollars and you can have 40%. You know,

Speaker 1 | 24:32.221

something to think about. Someone suggested, you know, go build your personal website. I’m like, what is the difference between that and LinkedIn profile website? You know.

Speaker 0 | 24:41.768

Good point. That’s a good point. Why don’t we just use something that’s already there? Why reinvent the wheel? Let’s just, I don’t know, social media. Yeah. Good point.

Speaker 1 | 24:49.315

Why? Don’t reinvent the wheel, right? Reusability. But I think there is a true value of having the right website. You know, I don’t buy anything from someone that usually doesn’t have a good website. Or maybe I’ll think twice. That means you’re not established, you know, in handling my money, probably, you know, or handling my private information, my credit card information. So definitely something to think about for sure.

Speaker 0 | 25:13.730

Right. So I can’t just send you like, hey, pay, you know, send it to my PayPal and we’ll be good. I’ll get the product over to you.

Speaker 1 | 25:21.095

I will try to. figure out whether I can trust you before I give you any money.

Speaker 0 | 25:25.698

So this is this part of the show where we call I do a conspiracy part of the show. We don’t even need to go full conspiracy theory, but let me ask you this. Is Elon Musk really as smart as he says he is, or is he not really? I’m going to go with not really. If I ask real engineers and stuff, they’re like, nah, he’s just a business guy.

Speaker 1 | 25:46.449

Whether he is as smart as he is, you have to look at his accomplishments.

Speaker 0 | 25:51.920

Okay, so he’s good at taking people’s money. Let’s see, PayPal. Okay, so you took people’s money. Okay.

Speaker 1 | 25:59.562

He has great inventions, you know, at least under his belt. So I don’t want to judge whether he did it himself. So he bring a group of people and resources from other people to make it happen.

Speaker 0 | 26:11.245

Exactly. Even Arnold Schwarzenegger says, if it wasn’t for like the people around me, I’d never be who I was, right? It’s not just about Arnold,

Speaker 1 | 26:19.207

even though it is. But any leader is like that. You can’t do everything yourself. You have to- No way. You have to leverage and collaborate with others. That’s why I always say I’m a natural collaborator. I think you can go further if you can actually leverage the resources around you to make it better and to advance further. Why not?

Speaker 0 | 26:38.753

Teamwork makes the dream work. So how do we collaborate better? How do we collaborate better? What’s the key? Because is it delegate? it’s not really delegation is it collaboration what’s the key to really getting the best out of people and maybe it is just I collaboration really does really does work but then then there’s this problem of who does what and how do we bring it all together right you need to understand the person so

Speaker 1 | 27:08.524

the way I you know I always try to align people’s interests with what work and opportunities is available out there That means taking time to get to know the person. You know, what encourages them, what interests them. You know, I’ve had conversations with people and then I understand, okay, this direct report doesn’t like to do this type of work, but like to do this type of work. So when I had an opportunity, I tried to make it happen. And the more you do that, you are seeing it’s a leader that actually invests in people. People want to work for you, seriously. And I remember having conversations from people that are from another team within the company. And the more I have conversations with them, I realized that they are ready for a change. And the type of work they wanted to do, I can actually offer them.

Speaker 0 | 28:00.281

So what do you mean by that?

Speaker 1 | 28:03.263

So what I mean by that is…

Speaker 0 | 28:04.824

Like they’re ready for change. What made you understand that they’re ready for change? Yeah, I hate my job. What gave you that? You know, like I kind of, after talking with him, I realized, you know, he was miserable and he was ready for a change.

Speaker 1 | 28:20.914

Well, I had two instances, you know, maybe one on the top of my head, I advertised a particular position and the person applied for it. You know, I knew the person was ready for a change, but I didn’t think that the person was the right one, but I don’t want to assume. So I had a conversation with this particular applicant and understand why did you apply for the job? You know, what do you think this job is? And then in the end, I began to realize that, well, I’ve done this for the last 10 years. I just wanted to do something different. I said, okay, is that all you want? What do you mean by doing something different? You actually ask the right questions, you know, to help them discover what they are looking for. That is a very, very powerful thing that I learned from a previous manager. You know, is you can ask the right questions to help your employees figure out what they want to do in life. Figure out what their interests are. And then once you get a better understanding of what the person wants, I try to align the opportunities available with what the person wants. And I will advise them against, you know, don’t pursue this. It’s not right for you. You know, let’s maybe consider this other opportunity, whether on my team or outside my team, that’s more aligned with what you want to do. I think I’ve done that many times. I’ve done that many times. And I find that it’s really… a very good way of establishing and helping people understand who you are as a leader. That you’re not just here to drive everybody to deliver the work. But you are a talent developer. You are someone that wants to help people reach their career goals. Just as, you know, I appreciated my managers that have helped me reach my goals. It’s different because I learned a long time ago, you know, it’s like, I really do not want to be an employee. Why? Because I always felt that a lot of conversations I used to have with my managers, it always goes nowhere and it frustrates me a ton. And I tell myself that I don’t want to be the same type of manager. I want to be a manager that people want to work for.

Speaker 0 | 30:29.556

Yeah. No one wants to have a job.

Speaker 1 | 30:32.058

No.

Speaker 0 | 30:33.318

People want to have a career. People want to have a career, right? No one wants just like a job that they show up to. Now, but at the same time, there’s stuff that we have to do that we might not necessarily like that we have to do. So we find out what excites people. We find out what encourages them. And we align that with the correct position. But. That’s still now we’ve almost we’ve almost aligned this person up with their shiny object. Right. So how do we prevent them from going down the rabbit hole every day of shiny object syndrome and staying on task and doing the things that we need them to do that they might not want to do, even though they get this chance to do what they really love to do?

Speaker 1 | 31:10.976

You still have to give them performance goals.

Speaker 0 | 31:15.419

Don’t get this wrong. Don’t get me wrong, John. Now that you’re in a role that you love, you will get fired if you don’t do this. No.

Speaker 1 | 31:22.636

Yeah, you have a way to measure performance, you know, on a year to year basis. We have structures in place that we define goals and cascade goals. So I’m not too worried about that, you know, because in the end, they will still be measured against. Did you did you actually meet the goals that we set in a work plan for the year?

Speaker 0 | 31:43.167

What do you do if you find someone that ended up in the wrong role or they’re not right for the right role or for whatever reason, things aren’t clicking? It just doesn’t seem to jive. It doesn’t seem to.

Speaker 1 | 31:50.912

just doesn’t seem to be working out well uh you have critical conversations yeah i mean yeah we have these conversations on right yeah yeah you have to performance manage i learned to uh have the critical conversation understand what is going on and to assess whether that’s temporary or is it permanent if it’s permanent as in they really do not have interest in your job you Try to have that heart-to-heart conversation to figure out what is the best next step for them. I remember having a conversation with someone that I literally have to tell the person, you know, you want to grow in this company. You want to be promoted. You got to bring the best version of yourself to work. Nobody’s going to promote you or want to hire you if you’re not bringing the best version of yourself and doing a good job. Because if you’re doing a good job, people tap on your shoulder. You never have to look for a job again. I’ve seen that many times. And I’m glad, you know, in the end, the person decided that they need to do something.

Speaker 0 | 33:00.675

That’s true. Do you think it’s some things are confidence levels in people or self-assurance type things? Or what is it? It is.

Speaker 1 | 33:11.804

Some I have met very, very smart. employees with many degrees. I find myself having to bring them into a room and say, hey, you know, you got all these master’s degree. Stop saying sorry. Have confidence in yourself. You’re credible. You are capable. You should be more confident. But I bring them aside. You know, I don’t say anything in front of people, but you have to take time to do things like that. I believe in telling. people what they need to hear, you know, to help them grow. And you’ll begin to realize that over time, you can see some of these changes. I do think that a big part.

Speaker 0 | 33:55.788

Are there any tools there? I got to ask you, are there any tools there? Because there’s a lot of confidence tools. I was the kid in high school that walked with his head down the hall, didn’t talk to anybody. Yeah, I was just like, you know, like probably scared of his own shadow for like a long time, you know, and I don’t know what happened. I don’t know if it was like all of a sudden I got. this like weird job where I had to talk to people and I was forced to, you know, I don’t know if it started out in the call center. I don’t know what, I don’t know what happened all of a sudden, but I don’t know if it was just like embracing the anxiety and fear and doing it anyways, type of thing. Um, Susan Jeff, Susan Jeffers actually wrote a book called, uh, feel the fear and do it anyways, which I find to be a very good book and, um, uh, recommendation for anyone out there. So what’s the, you know, then we’ve got. you know there’s this kind of like um act as if mentality you know uh fake it till you make it quotes there’s all different things There’s the like, you know, like put on the, you know, glasses and become like this other person until you become that person type of thing. Is there any techniques or anything that you think or like, how do you coach confidence? And then saying like, look, like, A, you’re good looking. You’re smart. You’ve got degrees. Like, what is wrong? What’s wrong?

Speaker 1 | 35:17.979

Well, I think one thing would have. really encourage someone is when someone does something right, you want to reinforce that by giving praise. Be more open to, you know, as a manager or even as a fellow colleague. It will be a huge encouragement, you know, giving praise when it’s as quickly as you can, right, on the spot rather than waiting a long time. You know, when you see something good, say so. It encourages someone. You know, you don’t know that they’re at the point. where they’re feeling down, then we have lifted up their spirits. So that’s external. But the other thing I fully agree with you, how do you grow your confidence? Is you really embrace the challenges and actually overcome them. And the more you’re able to overcome your fears and anxieties and do it anyways, like how you say it, you grow in confidence in your own capabilities as well. But the other part of it is mindset and changing them and manage our minds. our thoughts. It is true because you never know. Sometimes you look at, wow, you know, this actor or actress is so pretty. Why are they depressed? Why are they thinking that?

Speaker 0 | 36:32.819

I can tell you that one. I can answer that one. But they’re an actor.

Speaker 1 | 36:39.581

I do think the thoughts matter. It’s managing your thoughts.

Speaker 0 | 36:43.402

Yeah, absolutely. Your thoughts matter big time. Zig Ziglar said, quit your stinking thinking. Um, I found that to be very, very profound because how many times are we, I don’t know, in the shower in the morning or whatever, and we’re going on having this completely fake argument in our head with another person. We’re just like, all of a sudden there’s just this, have you ever done that? Have you ever found yourself like, yeah, if I ever, if that ever happened, I’m going to say this and then I’m going to do this. And then I’m like, and like all the, it’s a completely fabricated, completely make-believe situation. of someone that you’re arguing with in your head. And it could be like a colleague at work. It could be some, I don’t know. Have you ever had that happen?

Speaker 1 | 37:28.142

I’ve seen it.

Speaker 0 | 37:29.322

You’re like, no, you’re crazy, Phil.

Speaker 1 | 37:31.543

No, no, no. The thing is, there’s always different voices, you know, that seem to be talking to you in your head,

Speaker 0 | 37:38.705

right? Thousands of whatever milliseconds or I don’t even, we can, can we even track latency on that? I don’t think we can.

Speaker 1 | 37:46.164

No, I can’t even track that. But I do feel that, you know, you could be going to a meeting that you did such a great job. Right. And then the next moment you came home and you suddenly felt, well, there’s this one thing I didn’t do right.

Speaker 0 | 38:01.294

I wish I said that. I forgot.

Speaker 1 | 38:03.976

I know. I wish I wish I wish I could have done this one thing differently. And then the next moment you don’t feel good. But how do you actually tell yourself that? You know what? Maybe it’s back to the half empty or half full, right? What are you going to focus on? Are you going to focus on the things you should have done differently versus, you know, that you had done so much in your life already, or you had done so well in the meeting? Don’t focus on the one thing that you could have done differently. Move on. Life is too short, you know, to really think about the one thing you didn’t do right.

Speaker 0 | 38:37.171

Yeah, back to Zig Ziglar. He helped me out a lot. I mean, just quit your stinking thinking. It’s simple. Then he said, and then he said, the next time someone asks you how you’re doing, I want you to have an index card. I want you to write on one side of the index card. I’m outstanding, but improving. And then on the other side of the index card, I want you to write, I’m super good, but I’ll get better. And he’s like, and the next time someone asks you how you’re doing, just pull out that index card. It doesn’t matter what side pops up first. Just answer. Just say what either. I’m super. I’m outstanding but improving or I’m super good but I’ll get better I was like hmm it’s true though I mean these things are crazy and you know and then you run into some psychologist guy and he’ll be like you know all these mind games don’t work when you have real depression and that might be true if you have a chemical imbalance or something like that that’s maybe a bipolar or something but for me it worked for me this stuff for me this stuff um worked yeah why waste time on why waste time on whatever spilt milk or whatever these things are you know Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. I don’t know what that means even. You know,

Speaker 1 | 39:47.136

I think life is a lot about choices that you make, right? And I’m learning as well, you know, because you don’t know why one day you’re happy and then another day you’re down. I remember talking to someone that said, you know, you’re living too much, thinking about what it could have been, what you could have done differently. Why don’t you live in the now? You know, I’m like, well, that’s kind of true. You know, why do I live in the now and just enjoy today?

Speaker 0 | 40:11.477

Yeah, that’s me. That’s me. My kids are like, oh, I miss the old house where we used to live. I miss theirs. I was like, yeah, who cares? It’s gone. It’s over.

Speaker 1 | 40:17.343

Yeah.

Speaker 0 | 40:18.644

It does get kind of. It does happen though, as you get older, like my, my mother passed away. And as you start to see your family go on, as you start to move from stage to stage in life, you move to different stages and you start looking back and I’m just at the stage now where I’m like preparing for death. And, um, I just kind of look back and look at the childhoods over your parents or your, as your parents pass away and move on. And as you’re no longer, it’s just, you start, yeah, you, you still need to, yeah. I don’t know what to say there, whatever that is. The, I want to talk about, you mentioned intentional moves. You’re talking in the past. And I think it’s very important advice for people out there that might change jobs or, or want to move throughout their career. And I do want to ask you what the end game is because, because you’re, you’re a mover. So you’re constantly learning. You’re constantly taking on the new thing. So where does it end? That’s never going to end. That’s like, I’m always hungry and starving. Well, um, But I do want to ask you about intentional moves, because I think it’s an important point. What did you mean by that? Yeah,

Speaker 1 | 41:24.489

I would say by nature, I have a growth mindset. And my mantra in life is, you know, you have to control your life, you know, where you want to go, make right choices, because you only have one life to live. So my advice to people is go for a path for yourself, whatever that means for you, that brings satisfaction to you. I remember a manager told me, well, how do you decide what job you want to be in? One of the things that is very, very critical, how do you want to live? For that manager, the person works from home. I hardly see her, you know, and that’s important to her.

Speaker 0 | 42:07.591

Do you work to live or do you live to work?

Speaker 1 | 42:10.794

that’s a question too right i mean some people love to be love their work so much they will work 24 by 7 and become workaholics right yeah when they go home they’re depressed i used to say man i’m like thank praise the lord it’s monday yeah

Speaker 0 | 42:27.343

you know to have that right there’s no longer like get me out you know so you Uh, you said make good choices. It’s very important. People don’t, and as advice to children too, and anyone or just anyone, some people’s lives are so screwed up because they just made bad choices. It literally made one choice. They made one decision, one decision alone.

Speaker 1 | 42:58.694

Yeah.

Speaker 0 | 43:00.495

Derailed their entire life. One day, you know, it’s so many people. I just, I. I don’t know what it is. I went to one party. I picked up a gun. I did. One decision, one decision completely derailed someone’s life. So you’re saying make good choices. I think we need to underline that and highlight that.

Speaker 1 | 43:22.664

Yeah. And the other part that I would say, where does it end? I’m trying to answer that right now.

Speaker 0 | 43:29.427

Okay, good. I want to know the end game because no one answers the end game. And you’re just so I know. Yeah. It’s so important because. Again, you’re like 0.005%. So there’s one other woman out there somewhere in your position that needs this advice. Okay. So anyways, so what’s the end game for the top 0.001% of the industry leaders? What’s the end game?

Speaker 1 | 43:57.952

I think the end game, I will be able to identify it when I see it. For many years, you know, my boss sometimes asked me, what do you want to do next? I created a career development plan thanks to some of my managers. You know, they said, well, I create my career development plan and I share it with the leaders, the senior leaders in the company. So I decided to create one many years ago. I am on track because some ways to measure my progress. I’m on track, you know, to become the head of department that I attain at Cummins. So what is next? I’m trying to answer that. And I realized that there are potential possibilities. I literally had to sit down and put down what are the things that I’m willing to do? What are the things that I absolutely would not want to do? And what are the areas that potentially could be? And a lot of it, I think life is also about opportunities that are presented to you. There were times where, yes, I would like to be the CIO, you know, or I would like to be this, I would like to be that. But somehow the doors are just always closed. But I believe that if the doors are always closed, why don’t you look at if there’s a window open elsewhere, that could potentially bring you the life that you want it to be. So I guess my advice is always that, you know, take the time to really reflect. That’s what I’m doing. You know, I’m open to potential possibilities. I could be playing a number of different roles. At the same time, as I continue to have conversations with people and as people reach out to me on what the opportunities are, we’ll see if that ended up being an open door. And if it’s an open door aligned with what I would like to do, I would know it when it comes that that’s my next step in life. Does that seem to make sense? And at some point, of course, as you said, you know, all of us are working towards possibly retirement.

Speaker 0 | 46:02.790

Yeah, I mean, I’m working towards the grave. I just want to make sure that, yeah, at any moment, at any moment, I’m ready for death. Seriously. Yeah,

Speaker 1 | 46:14.294

I mean, is there anything that you want to do right now that you would have regrets at the end of your life that you didn’t do? One thing I always remind myself, I only have one life to live. If I were to, at the end of my life, regret, what would that be? And I can list out the items and start doing them. Is it in a bucket list? Or I always wanted to go back to school. That’s why I’m back in school right now, because I thought about it for more than a year. I’m like, how about finally just doing it?

Speaker 0 | 46:45.371

Regret is the worst. Yeah, for me, it would be that I didn’t work hard enough, that I didn’t study hard enough, that I didn’t learn, spend time doing the things that matter most. And I think it’s really hard nowadays because we have so many distractions. We have so much social media garbage. We have so much stuff being thrown at us on TV. We have so much political unrest and movements and everyone wanting to raise their hand and, I don’t know, be a thought leader and need to have some sort of meaning in their life. I don’t know what is going on, but there’s so much to get distracted and angry about and to stink and think about, you know? So, yes, I think it’s very important to stay intentionally grounded, I guess, with your mindset and, yeah, be intentional with your choices, to use your words.

Speaker 1 | 47:39.784

Yeah, I mean, there’s way too many things out there we can control. And I agree with you that there’s so many things happening in the world. If we just focus on that, I think you would think that the world is coming to an end tomorrow.

Speaker 0 | 47:52.989

It might be. It might be.

Speaker 1 | 47:55.270

Seriously. What if it does not, right?

Speaker 0 | 47:59.152

What is AI going to do about it? How are we going to beef up the network? How can we protect the network from this next… Yeah. Presidential election. I do not talk about politics. I just wanted to throw that out there because I thought it’d be. Yeah.

Speaker 1 | 48:14.065

Live your life to the fullest, you know, a day at a time, because there’s some, so many things that you and I have no control over. You know,

Speaker 0 | 48:21.487

I want to ask you specifically, how hard is the job? I want to ask you just from a technical standpoint, if you, let’s say you’re a CTO, CIO, big enterprise company, massive network, migrating things to the cloud, worrying about security. worrying about all these bullet points and everything. I want to ask you, how difficult is that job? What’s your favorite part of the nuts and bolts and wires and Cat6 and wireless things and on to AWS and Azure and Google Cloud or whatever is it? Which one’s your favorite? Please tell me all of that now.

Speaker 1 | 48:58.518

I would say it’s not an easy job, but it’s a lot easier when you form the right team.

Speaker 0 | 49:04.499

Okay.

Speaker 1 | 49:04.960

No one knows everything. You know, I want to hire whenever possible the best network expert, the best data expert, you know, because even though I know so many different things, you know, because of my experience, I have a broad experience, I have exposure in many different areas, I’ve done many different things. I don’t know everything. And I may not know down to the level or detail.

Speaker 0 | 49:29.666

What do we do with a data expert? I got to know, what do we do with a data expert?

Speaker 1 | 49:33.944

The data experts.

Speaker 0 | 49:34.844

I want a data expert. How do I find a good data nerd? I want to know. What do I do?

Speaker 1 | 49:39.145

Well, I don’t know how best to, I guess, go find the people.

Speaker 0 | 49:44.666

Do I have enough data that I need a data expert yet? I’ve got 300 shows. We’ve got hours and hours of footage. Do I have enough data that I need a data expert or no? Or can I just get an AI guy and we’ll be good there?

Speaker 1 | 49:58.474

depending on what question you’re trying to ask and what problem you’re trying to solve, right? Okay,

Speaker 0 | 50:04.859

here’s my problem. My problem is the show is not worth a billion dollars yet. Solve that problem for me. There’s the problem. Very simple. The show is not making money from advertising yet. Solve that problem.

Speaker 1 | 50:21.790

Oh, that is a very good question. I definitely have.

Speaker 0 | 50:25.493

This was a fun project that started out as a, this started out as a hobby, basically me recording a show on a cell phone and a Starbucks drive-thru. Okay. Now I’ve got 10 people. I’ve got an AI team. I’ve got all this stuff. We need to make some money from advertising. Let’s solve that problem.

Speaker 1 | 50:42.087

Then you need the people that will invest, right?

Speaker 0 | 50:44.809

In this podcast.

Speaker 1 | 50:47.071

Because you bet I did listen to a number of other podcasts. podcast and they will stop and say, by the way, so-and-so company, you know, would like you to know about their new product. Yeah,

Speaker 0 | 51:00.379

we need that.

Speaker 1 | 51:00.940

Talk about IT product even.

Speaker 0 | 51:04.682

Yeah, it’s on the horizon. Let’s just say it’s on the horizon.

Speaker 1 | 51:09.485

You know, maybe that’s something that we can talk offline because I don’t know off the top of my head.

Speaker 0 | 51:14.147

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Speaker 1 | 54:05.126

I don’t think it’s just a software guy. Seriously, I think a lot of companies have too much data that they don’t know what to do with.

Speaker 0 | 54:12.389

Yes.

Speaker 1 | 54:12.869

What you need is somebody that can figure out what they can do with the data. I’ve heard it again and again. Too much data, don’t know what to do with it, basically just collecting data. You have to drive outcomes. So once again, you know, with the data, you got to see what you have. What can you do with that? How can you visualize? a new business model. How can you actually visualize, you know, decisions that you could be making differently with the data you get? That is the type of person when they can actually connect the data into meaningful insight. That’s the type of person you need. You don’t just need a Python person. You know, a Python person can code, but code what?

Speaker 0 | 54:55.019

Exactly.

Speaker 1 | 54:57.736

It’s real. We’re always talking about driving business outcome, driving business value. That’s what enterprise architecture is as well, is how do we actually get there to actually drive meaningful outcomes and enable technology strategy to align with business outcomes?

Speaker 0 | 55:15.010

I could talk with you all day. Me too. We probably can’t. We’re going on an hour or so, but let’s see, what’s the next thing that we can do You had a thing called Impact Project Team. Did you make that up? Did you make that up?

Speaker 1 | 55:31.252

I didn’t.

Speaker 0 | 55:31.572

Where did that idea come from? It’s just such a great name, Impact Project Team. We’re not going to just have a project management team. We’re going to have an impact project team. We’re going to make an impact here. I love that name.

Speaker 1 | 55:42.641

It’s probably trademarked by MIT Professional Education. They call it an impact project.

Speaker 0 | 55:50.348

MIT, you got an advertising space. You got an advertising space.

Speaker 1 | 55:55.352

We took that and asked ourselves the question, though, is what kind of impact can we make? You know, what does that really mean? Do we want to be a social enterprise or do we really want to create a business out of it, you know, to make it into a commercial enterprise? So maybe the name really drives us to really think about the impact we can make. But as an individual project group, I meet with my teammates to figure out what that really means and also to align with something we’re passionate about. Because I do firmly think that you can possibly impact the areas that you’re most passionate about. So, yeah, that’s what it is. You know, we’re coming up with ideas. Could become a real business or could be something that we just do on paper. But at the end of it, you know, we know that it’s got to be time well spent, you know, solving the problem. Whatever we define as a scope for it.

Speaker 0 | 56:48.907

It’s intentional. You have a lot of good words. You have very well-placed words. I think that’s very important. It has a lot, again, with mindset, being intentional. We’re going to intentionally have a meeting today. That means rather than just have a project management meeting, we’re going to have an impact project meeting because we’re going to make an impact. People are like, whoa,

Speaker 1 | 57:12.133

you’re going to do something.

Speaker 0 | 57:16.012

I mean, I’m not going to just show up to another meeting. I’m actually going to make an impact on the world. I mean, that’s so deep. So deep. It makes so much sense. Oh, I mean, it’s like, no, but one well-placed word can have such an impact. It really can. And I think these simple things, I think there’s so much to unpack from talking with you. It’s been an… absolute pleasure um i i don’t know i’ll leave this last thing up to you i don’t know if you want to leave a piece of advice um i i hope that that thing that is supposed to show up from you will show up and you’ll know it when you see it that’s yeah very profound when i figured it out it’s very profound it’s very profound no me i’m just trying to uh me i just want time me that thing that i want to show up is more time, but time ticks on relentlessly. Relentlessly, we have taken a few more breaths towards our grave. We have used up a number of breaths, even on this podcast right now, that we will never get back. Time ticks on relentlessly. I want time. That’s what I want.

Speaker 1 | 58:37.276

But something that you can control because we are all not going to get additional time.

Speaker 0 | 58:42.279

No, we don’t know how much time we got either. So I really want to be able to have that time to spend on things that I find of high value, which you kind of, you mentioned it earlier to go back to school, to study, to intentionally study things that matter most. That’s what I want. And I want to make sure that this podcast is impactful, that we are intentionally having an impactful podcast here. So with that being said, what, what are your final words?

Speaker 1 | 59:12.594

Yep. I would say, you know. Take time to reflect on and don’t just live life in an autonomous mode. At some point, we are all busy. We don’t need time to really reflect on are we on track? Are we where we want to be? And don’t focus on the things you cannot control.

Speaker 0 | 59:35.666

What do you have to say to the women? What do you have to say to the women? Because we’ve, you know, it’s like, to me, I don’t really see like in technology, like. you kind of do technology. You’re either a good technology leader or not. And this is going to go down another rabbit hole. It’s okay. We’ve got time. I just, I have, because why is it? That there’s not more, we’re going to end with, we started with why is there not more women in technology? We’re ending with why is there not more women in technology? I don’t, is it, do people not believe that you’re smart enough? Do people not believe that women are smart enough to run, um, uh, uh, I don’t know, a 52 port gig, gig, uh, POE switch and, um, understand data. And, uh, I don’t know. they’re not going to respect a woman leader and all these guys have been in the network room forever and they know better. Is it that? Is it just straight up stereotypical?

Speaker 1 | 60:35.448

My advice, find your place because we may not be the person that leads network, but the whole computer and IT world, there’s such a wide scope. Find your place that you can shine. We are all wired differently. I don’t think, you know, there are certain areas I may be weaker in. I would not want to pursue those, but leverage your strengths. You know, once you understand what your strength is, go for it. You know, never think that you can’t do it. Give yourself a chance to try something and you never know that could be the next path that brings you to the top. You never know. You know, I tried many things. I gave myself the chance to try many things and eventually I figured out what I was passionate about, what I like to do. and where the opportunities are. And that’s how I was able to build a progressive career all this while. And what’s next? Time will tell.

Speaker 0 | 61:29.515

Yeah, my headline for you would be, I think my headline would be for you. I was like, I learned, what did you learn in six months again? I learned somehow graphical, how to program graphical unit interfaces in six months. And then was asked to lead a team to do it. That would be your headline.

Speaker 1 | 61:46.029

I’d love to think about that. Yeah. But I would say definitely give yourself the chance to be uncomfortable. And when you give yourself the chance to take that calculated risk, you will never know that you could be making it. You know, don’t listen to what people say you can or cannot do. Try it out for yourself. Give your best. You know, you might actually just make it and get there.

Speaker 0 | 62:12.848

I’m curious. When’s the last time you’ve been back to Singapore?

Speaker 1 | 62:15.830

Just recently.

Speaker 0 | 62:17.271

Why not go back to Singapore? Why America? Land of the free. Land of the free and free and all that. All those lies. Okay. Okay.

Speaker 1 | 62:24.174

Yep. I have family here.

Speaker 0 | 62:26.455

Most of the family’s here?

Speaker 1 | 62:28.135

In a sense. The most significant half is here.

Speaker 0 | 62:32.157

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I gotcha. I gotcha. Yeah. That’s why.

Speaker 1 | 62:36.939

Yeah.

Speaker 0 | 62:37.819

Okay.

Speaker 1 | 62:38.039

It’s a person’s decision when you are not alone.

Speaker 0 | 62:41.701

True. True. Good point. Good point. Again, well, thank you for sharing. I just. wanted to know is, you know, it’s, um, it’s been a pleasure having you on the show. Uh, great advice to everybody. And again, having the top 0.001% is, um, the pleasure is all mine.

Speaker 1 | 63:02.055

Thank you. That’s been fun. I really enjoy talking to you because you’re just so fun to talk to.

Speaker 0 | 63:07.379

Well, thank you. That’s a, if I could, again, looking for, um, if someone wants to pay me a billion dollars to talk with people, I can do that all day. It’d be great.

Speaker 1 | 63:17.392

Well, you do it well. Thank you.