Speaker 0 | 00:06.920
Welcome back, everyone, to Dissecting Popular IT Nerds. I’m your host, Doug Kameen, and today I’m talking with Larry Sage, Director of Information Technology at Cleveland Steel Container. Welcome to the show, Larry.
Speaker 1 | 00:18.888
Hey, good to be here.
Speaker 0 | 00:20.229
So, Larry, Steel Container, Cleveland Steel Container, what? I just, this feels like a very specific business.
Speaker 1 | 00:28.815
It is. It is. It’s interesting. So I actually just transitioned to Cleveland Steel about seven weeks ago. So I’m still learning the business as well. But basically, Cleveland Steel Container is a basically they make steel containers. You see them a lot in paint operations, basically five gallon buckets. I actually have a picture of one, but you can’t see it. It’s yes, it is a very specific operation. Cleveland Steel, though, does have. three other companies, Pipeline Packaging, Hazmat Pack, and then Coexcel, which are basically subsidiary companies. But all in all, it’s a unique operation. It’s definitely something. It’s an old company that was started here in Cleveland, and they’ve done pretty well for themselves.
Speaker 0 | 01:16.699
Yeah, that’s awesome. So all across the country, I mean, probably across the world too, but I’ll just limit myself to the United States when I generalize, I guess. Right. The- There’s businesses like this all over where they get into this niche of something that they could do really, really well. And then it turns into, you know, a reasonable business that sustains people and sustains a company. You know, but I think in our minds, like so much of what we think about in, you know, businesses, I call it large corporate America. You know, hey, you know, if your business is just building steel containers, how does that even work, if you will? But that’s the way it is all across the country for most businesses.
Speaker 1 | 01:57.728
Right. I mean, that’s, I mean, honestly, even the last place that I was at, we was pressure sensitive. They made label. And, you know, so now I come to where I’m at today and, you know, I tell my kids all the time, I mean, when it comes to manufacturing and these types of businesses that exist, yeah, it’s amazing to see how you could develop, you know, years and years of a very profitable business on what seemingly is, you know, one or two products. And again, from the Cleveland Steel side that, you know, they really develop a very good. pale, you know, and they, they develop everything within it. They, they use paint. There’s all these, you know, and again, I’m still learning the overall business, but yes, it’s amazing to me. And, and I wouldn’t say it’s commodity, but it is something where once you understand it, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of different ways. And the nice thing, at least from my perspective, a lot of the stuff that I’ve done in my previous jobs all translate to kind of the same, you know, requirements and projects and things that I need to do here. So it’s, uh, Yeah, it’s a neat little nit, like you said.
Speaker 0 | 03:00.294
That’s cool. Now, just because it popped into my head, and by the time people are listening to this podcast, this will have passed. But Cleveland, you’re in the eclipse.
Speaker 1 | 03:10.782
Yes, we’re excited. We are ready for it. My wife has already got glasses and already set up. We’re actually going to have here at work, I think they’re actually taking that time frame and saying, okay, we’re having, I think. I think somebody’s bringing in food. We’re having a big party with it. So it’s going to be interesting to kind of, but yeah, I’m looking forward to it. It’s going to be interesting.
Speaker 0 | 03:30.517
Yeah. So I’m not too far from you. I’m in upstate New York. I live around the Binghamton area. We’re just outside of the eclipse, but where I work and my corporate office is in Rochester and Syracuse to the north of us is all those cities are in the eclipse. And it’s like, it’s crazy town. Like all the schools are closed. You know, like cats sleeping with dogs, schools are closed. It’s crazy. Like everything’s going bananas. And, and so, uh, you know, the, the, the amount of stuff that’s going to happen, I think they said just in Buffalo alone, they’re expecting like a half million people to show up in the city, uh, visitors, you know, like people who, and on top of the million people who live there.
Speaker 1 | 04:10.813
Right.
Speaker 0 | 04:11.693
Like, and I’m sure it’s no different down in Cleveland and throughout Northeastern Ohio. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1 | 04:16.016
they’ve, they have, they’ve, you know, I know that my, my wife was a teacher and they’ve, they’ve, they’ve already planned to shut down several of the schools and. And, you know, there’s a lot of businesses that are like closing that day. So it’s going to be an it’s going to be an interesting, you know, you know, again, I can’t remember when I’ve ever experienced anything like this. I think it is kind of a big deal. So it’ll be it’ll be interesting. Hopefully, none of the conspiracy theories will come through and it’ll be the end of the world.
Speaker 0 | 04:39.012
I was just going to mention this. So so the the the founder of our show, one of the other co-hosts, Phil, Phil, Phil loves asking his the guests of the show about conspiracy theories. Like what he’s like, he’s like, hey, tell me what conspiracy theory do you believe in? And just to see what somebody will say. But the eclipse is like the ultimate conspiracy theory. you know, breeding ground, if you will, you know, kooky things happen and all sorts of, you know, so.
Speaker 1 | 05:06.574
Well, you know, now that we’ve talked about it and our phones have picked us up, cause that’s also conspiracy, but I think it’s kind of true. Cause I’m sure I’ll see a TikTok video or something will come up in my Facebook feed about the eclipse at this point. Guaranteed.
Speaker 0 | 05:19.058
Yeah. So, so yeah. So, so we’re, we’re getting ready for, for crazy town to happen in both, both the places where, where we live here in the next few weeks, as mentioned by. for those of you listening to the podcast this will this will be probably three weeks in the past by the time we’re uh you’re listening to this this uh episode but like even around here and i think it’s true for you too like this doesn’t while eclipse has happened with regularity um there won’t be one in like the northern part of the u.s or at least in in my area for like 140 years like everyone who has the possibility to see one without traveling will be dead by the time the next one comes around so right so like i’m making I’m making the time to go see this thing.
Speaker 1 | 06:00.102
Right, right, right.
Speaker 0 | 06:01.784
So back to, let’s get back to, you know, we’re on a leadership podcast. Perhaps we should talk about some leadership things. Right, right. You mentioned before you were, you’re new in this job at Cleveland Steel Container. It’s, what attracted you to this role, if you will? I mean, you were, your prior role was, you spent a long time at your prior role. So, you know, you’re looking for, you were looking for that change. So what, what,
Speaker 1 | 06:26.045
Well, it was a lot of it. I mean, I had been with my prior company almost 28 years with two tours of duty there and had spent, you know, I pretty much came up in IT in that organization. And so for me, you know, I was looking at, you know, I’ve got to that age now where it’s like, okay, I knew I needed to make, you know, kind of one more move. And really, I wanted to get into another manufacturing company that I felt really could benefit from kind of the skill sets and things that I kind of, you know, felt like was in my wheelhouse. And really, you know, it really clicked off every checkbox for me. They’ve got a lot of applications. You know, they’re still running, you know, an older Oracle system. But nevertheless, they’ve got a lot of applications that really, you know, they’ve purchased or they’ve now got subscriptions to over time. And so for me, when I look at the whole landscape of what’s there, it was a very attractive thing to me. And then looking at kind of where they’re at on their journey. So I’m the very first. IT director for the company.
Speaker 0 | 07:27.826
You’re representing the role. That’s awesome. And so
Speaker 1 | 07:30.487
I kind of get to set the precedence of what this role is. And so far, seven weeks into it, it’s been very encouraging, a very solid company. And so that was really some things I was looking at. And really, for me, it was a chance to kind of, you know, sometimes you need a little bit of a reset. And I think for me, it was needed. The last place I was at, we were heavy into a large ERP implementation. Um, we’ve been working on it for a number of years. And like I said, I kind of, I kind of exhausted a lot of the things that I was able to accomplish there. Love the company. It was a great company to be there. Uh, but now looking at kind of the next, you know, you know, I guess the last leg of my tour, if you will, um, over the next 10, 15 years, whatever I have left, um, really wanted to get into a place where I felt like, again, not only just my technical skill sets, but one of the things I’ve really, and it was interesting to talk about leadership because that’s one of the things. I looked at here that the leadership style that is currently the culture here was very aligned with kind of where I’m at. You know, I’m a father of five. And so for me, I’ve always been a coach on all my kids, you know, sports teams and whatnot. And so I feel like this is a culture where not only do I get to be, you know, in charge and kind of be a solutions architect and play these different roles, but I kind of get to be a kind of a coach and mentor to. in some respects, a younger team that’s kind of coming up. Now, there’s some folks that have been here a while, but by and large, you know, it’s a team that’s still developing. And that was very much when I went through the interview process, that was the big attraction for me was that I was going to get the opportunity to, you know, again, you know, we always talk about mentoring and leadership, but I actually get to live that out. And so far in the first seven weeks, that’s been, you know, all my conversations have kind of come back to those types of conversations. So it’s been a good fit.
Speaker 2 | 09:27.093
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Speaker 0 | 11:46.851
So talking more specifically about leadership and the qualities of how you developed as a leader, you mentioned you had a long career at your prior place. You said 20 years?
Speaker 1 | 11:58.657
Yeah, almost 28 years between it. There was a couple years I actually had to go to Europe for a few years on an expat deal. Technically, I was still with the company. So I kind of look at all of that as the entire time. But yeah, it’s almost 28 years.
Speaker 0 | 12:12.006
So having come up through, and I think this would be a really interesting perspective for our listeners to hear and understand. You had the opportunity, 28 years, you worked for a fairly large corporation. I think that’s what it sounds like to me. I mean, you were working for a big business. This was not like a mom and pop shop. This wasn’t a hundred employee company. You were doing the IT on the back end. And- So you moved, you had the opportunity to learn a ton over those years, and then now you’ve transitioned to a smaller company where you’re building out an IT operation. So during the time you were at those 28 years, what was the most valuable things that you learned from a leadership perspective, being in the same company and having to move up inside that hierarchy?
Speaker 1 | 13:01.063
Well, I think a lot of it was is recognizing… that as I, you know, as I developed, you know, so I started as, you know, a systems analyst and, you know, it was really before you had, you know, business analysts and project managers, and you had all this diversity, you know, these diversified roles that developed in IT. And so for me, I would say, you know, taking each one of those experiences and learning to build on it. And from a leadership standpoint, that’s the thing that I think was the most impactful was that As each of these opportunities presented itself, taking advantage of it, learning what I could, and then really trying to apply it to the next step. And I think from a leadership standpoint, that’s the one thing that I’ve gained is that, you know, and again, a lot of times, and I talk about this with my boys now because they’re, you know, 24 and 20. And they want to, you know, they want everything right now. They want all the skills. They want all of the accolades, the money, everything right now. And I think. from a leadership standpoint, the thing that I really picked up is that it really is a journey and that, you know, the best leaders are those, I think, that have the unique experiences and really kind of work their way through the organization as opposed to just kind of coming in at a leadership position. I mean, I think for me, the most, the big thing for me was that, I’ve done most of the jobs in IT. from working on the service desk to writing technical documentation to development to collecting requirements as a BA to a development manager. I even took a stint in supply chain to be an inventory analyst, so I got to see from the business side. So all of those things, I think, really helped develop me as a leader. And I would say as new leaders starting up, the encouragement or I guess the coaching that I would give is take advantage of some of these opportunities Maybe you’re not in charge. Maybe you’re part of another team that’s doing something because you can learn from those other leaders. So those are the types of things I think, for me, that have been the most impactful.
Speaker 0 | 15:08.088
Awesome. So I’m trying to think through here. I talked with my wife about this. You mentioned the last phase of your career, if you will. We use that loosely. I mean, you’re talking about 15 years here. That’s not a short period of time.
Speaker 1 | 15:25.717
Right.
Speaker 0 | 15:28.067
A couple years ago, I transitioned from one role to another, and I really moved markets. I was in a smaller metro market that didn’t necessarily have a huge amount of new senior-level roles. So I had to shift into another metro market. So I moved from the Binghamton, New York market, which is relatively small, to the Rochester, New York market. And once I got there, it got me thinking about how a lot of times— When you’re moving through your career, there’s sort of like smaller steps that you make, you know, maybe every three to five years. Do I need to look at a new role? Do I need to, you know, it’s time to change jobs? You know, what’s the story I’ve told about the last period that I’ve worked? But there’s probably also an inflection point, a larger inflection point of like your, I would call it the first half of your career versus the last half of your career. So you spend the first half sort of building up for the things that you now get to kind of avail yourself of. as a leader in the back half, you know, where you’ve now, you’ve transitioned from being the person who is getting mentored regularly by the other leaders to the person who is expected to mentor the people that are with you or on your team and stuff like that. And that represents the kind of like the two sides of a larger career arc, if you will.
Speaker 1 | 16:51.783
Well, and again, I think, you know, and that’s a good way to put it. I mean, when, as you were talking, the, the sort of analogy that comes to mind, and I think we probably all have used it, you know, in that first part of your career, you’re, you’re building your tool bin, you’re building your toolbox, you’re developing your different skills, you’re, you know, for me, I spent a lot of time understanding the different, you know, development technologies and, you know, different, different stacks as far as what you were, you know, what was coming up, what was in, what was kind of where things were at. And again, Yeah. Spending all that time to develop the tool bench and then, again, like you said in the latter part, being able to actually utilize some of those tools and share those tools. I mean, that’s the thing that has been the most impactful is that as I talk about, even in a new technology space, new ERPs, new business, a lot of the things that I think I’ve been able to develop, even over the past five or six years, I now get to kind of coach and mentor kind of a new group. especially when you talk about integrations and really some of the things that I’ve been recently been doing, I get to kind of redeploy that in a different light here. So it’s been, you know, again, that’s, and again, that’s been the draw that’s kind of kept me encouraged with being in the IT field. I didn’t plan to even be in IT. So the fact is, you know, I always said early on, it’s like, you know, I wanted to be in a role that really I could, you know, make an impact. I thought I would be in marketing and communications, but recognize that, you know, one, I’m not a very good salesman and I pretty much enjoy, you know, technology. I’m a bit of a gearhead. So this role kind of fit very well for me.
Speaker 0 | 18:28.946
So you started looking to be like communications and those types of things and stumbled into.
Speaker 1 | 18:34.250
Oh, I absolutely stumbled into this. I, you know, I was thinking about it before the podcast about, you know, just my own journey. And, you know, I was always a thinker. You know, I was. you know, I was part of that generation in college where, you know, Apple kind of, you know, had the Macintosh and everybody learned to, you know, write papers and stuff on a Mac. And, you know, that was kind of my first exposure to computers. And then even when I got my first job, you know, basically I came in as a temp because I had experience with spreadsheets. And so it’s just, I just kind of built one skill after another to a point where, you know, Basically, now I’m the head of IT. At the last place, I was the vice president of IT. And so it’s one of those things where my coming up, really, I got to benefit from all of the previous jobs and previous work that I had done.
Speaker 0 | 19:27.237
So thinking back to – so you’ve been in leadership for – of your career, it’s 25, 30, almost 30 years here you’ve been in your career. You’ve been in leadership for probably about half of that right yeah that yeah okay so i always ask this i feel like this is one of these probing questions that i ask guests if you think back to your early leadership compared to now what what was like so i’ll frame this giving you example with me uh if you think back what what’s what did what did you learn that’s different from before that you wish you would kind of known that and like i think about like what you know i’m 45 now you So I think about what 25 year old me when it was a leader, you know, because I was at that point in time, I was actually in I had an early leadership position. And I’m like, oh, some of the things I did sometimes, you know, I was like. Like that thing I said to that person, I was like, man, I was a real kid. And I didn’t understand, you know, how to exercise authority or build followership with the staff that I had. So I’m curious about for you what that journey looked like and what you might have thought about from your earlier days to today.
Speaker 1 | 20:45.118
Right. Well, I would definitely say I would mimic that as well. I think in my early in my early. you know, days of being a leader, I didn’t listen. You know, I kind of came into the room with the solution. I, you know, pretty much was, you know, people would say I was kind of like a bulldog when I came in. I had the solution. This is what we need to do. And I didn’t listen. And so I would say, you know, that would be the big thing that I would look at. I would also say that, you know, in a lot of times I didn’t, you know, I didn’t really spend a lot of time getting consensus of the group. I’d get a couple individuals that I felt like were the strong ones, and then I would kind of journey around that. And especially if they were the ones that were the most vocal, I would kind of get their buy-in. But what I found is I developed that a lot of times the people that had usually the, I would say, the most practical ideas and the ideas that really we could go with are usually the ones that aren’t going to say anything unless you ask questions. And so that was another thing I think that I developed over time was. asking a lot of questions of people that typically don’t, don’t speak up. And that was where I can,
Speaker 0 | 21:56.330
that was it essentially.
Speaker 1 | 21:57.530
Exactly. Because I spent a lot of time, you know, and again, you go after the, the ones that seem to be the most passionate about something. And sometimes the, the people that really kind of have the, the base strong, solid, practical knowledge of something, aren’t the people that are the ones that are out in front. They’re just the ones that are sitting behind the scenes. They know how things are going to lay out. And again, unless you ask them, they might even let you fail. So you got to seek those things out. And I think that was two of the big lessons that I learned is really trying to notice those individuals, take the time to ask the right questions, and then make sure that, again, I’m not coming to the table with the solution. That was really the big thing for me because I was pretty arrogant up front early on. I did the, you know, we had these HR tests and I would always score really high in either confidence or arrogance. Like, I was like, am I confident or am I just arrogant? And I would, you know, but the nice thing was, was I really tried to take that into account as far as from a self-awareness standpoint to go, okay, I should look at this. And I shouldn’t just say, well, that’s just an opinion. And a lot of these things, I think over time really helped me develop better.
Speaker 0 | 23:16.998
Yeah. Self-reflection is like. To me, that’s one of the one of those like leadership superpowers that I think you develop over time is is when you become or those who are able to be the most self-reflective oftentimes have the most success with, you know, being influential as a leader with other folks.
Speaker 1 | 23:36.790
I would agree.
Speaker 0 | 23:37.291
Yeah, that’s it’s it’s a it’s a tough skill to have because like there’s usually a there’s a challenge that happens where. the people who are leaders, in many cases, you perceive or strive to be in that position. So, you have drive. And then the drive leads you to have confidence. And then the confidence leads you to not want to be self-reflective.
Speaker 1 | 24:04.813
Right. Yeah, there’s always that conflict because, again, and I even see it a little bit here, I’m expected when I’m invited to a meeting that I have all the answers and that I’m very sort of directive and I’m making it. strategy. And a lot of times it’s, you know, it’s kind of the opposite. Actually, I need to come in, listen to what’s being asked of me, and then go back, reflect, get some more input, and then come back with a strategy. But, you know, if I stay in a meeting where I’m expected to have the plan, oh, I don’t have a plan, I got to go figure it out. Well, that’s only going to go over so well. So there’s always that balance, I think.
Speaker 0 | 24:40.797
Yeah. And it’s laying the foundation and the groundwork with it. with the teams that you interact with is like is critical here like the guy i i go through the same thing just what you described where people will be like well i’m sorry not do people i’ll come into meetings and i’ll say hey look you know my goal the goal of me sitting here is not to show up with all the answers for you the goal of me sitting here is to be able to to understand holistically what it is you’re asking for what we need whatever the case may be and then be able to match that with a set of knowledge that you know can translate the two together like i’m you know for lack of a better way to put it i’m you know i’m the translator for business need to technology uh you know
Speaker 1 | 25:26.914
capability essentially right right well and then again i you know i heard a quote way way back in the day i went through this uh i don’t know if they still do it but it was sim training and we uh one of the quotes that was made is that good leaders help make connections and that’s really what our jobs is and you know our jobs are really to kind of be the conduit and especially in our roles where you know if you’re work like in my case and i think in your case where you are working for you know like i’m in in the manufacturing space my job is really to be that conduit to try to say okay Here’s what the business objective is. Now, how do we meet the systems or reporting or what have you to be able to accomplish a particular goal? Well, we have to be like, it’s a good way to put it. We translate that from here’s all the business requirements back down to our teams that now either have to change code, build reports, or in some cases, you know, with the business analysts being able to retrain people on the actual process. So it’s, you know, it’s a really nice place to sit. Because you do. Like for me, I love the fact that, you know, one of the biggest things to come to here was I got to learn a brand new industry. You know, I’m seven weeks in and I’m already, you know, I’m not to the place where I could tell you exactly how everything is put together and how all the distribution works. But that is one of the things that is the most attractive to, you know, these types of roles is because we get to touch all the different areas of the business and really learn an entire industry. So.
Speaker 0 | 26:53.585
So. Another leadership question for you. When you and I think this one, I think I feel would be interesting answer from you because of your long experience at a single organization moving through the ranks again. When did you feel that you had made the transition from being somebody who was being led to somebody who was leading?
Speaker 1 | 27:17.314
I think for me, the real caveat came when I. was asked to basically go abroad for two years and help them bring up their system. And then, you know, that really, that changed an entire trajectory for me, because at that point, I feel like I was recognized as a leader. I was recognized as somebody that would kind of take that instance and then bring it back to the U.S. operations. That was probably a pivotal moment in my career. And then from that point forward. most of the roles that I took on, you know, really, you know, I didn’t have to prove myself as a leader anymore. I think that’s really what it came down to is that I had gotten to a point where, well, that’s a good way to just kind of leave it at that. I felt like at that point, I didn’t have to prove that I was, you know, I should be a leader or that I was a leader. At that point, I was, it was well established, which is why I was being asked to do what I was doing.
Speaker 0 | 28:19.868
So you had the mental confidence to understand like, Like, hey, I do know this stuff now. Right. Or at least I understand why I’m being asked to do it. So, like, you know, because early in our careers, too, that’s another. There’s the challenge of confidence versus I’m trying to think of the other word to use. But confidence versus just being trying to be humble, if you will. Yeah. Where you’re like, oh, man, like, you don’t want to ask. You know, not that you don’t want to ask me entirely, but like. I don’t know if I know all the things that I need to know about that to answer this fully.
Speaker 1 | 28:54.251
Well, I think it’s one of those things, too, that the more, you know, like the words that came to mind for me is confidence begets confidence. So the more things that you’re confident in and you kind of are able to answer the question, then as you develop that, then you get more, you get more. comfortable in making those decisions. And the thing is too, is you might make some bad decisions, but recognizing that, okay, even if I make a bad decision or this isn’t the right call in this situation, the, the, the ability to kind of course correct and not beat yourself up over it, which is what we do when we’re younger, we make a mistake and we’re like frustrated, like, oh, I can’t believe I did that. I didn’t know what to do. I think as you, as you mature in that, then, then it just, it kind of grows within you. And I think that’s where I kind of reached the point where, you know, It wasn’t that I thought I was invincible or any of that, but it was one of those situations where I had already encountered so many different scenarios that really the scenarios, you know, they really weren’t new. It was kind of the same conversations I was having back in the early 2000s. And so a lot of it is just, you know, once you kind of get, once you recognize that, then it makes it a lot easier to… take risks, I guess is what it boils down to, because you know that you’re not going to die from these. You’re not going to lose your job. And really, it’s having that confidence. really allows you to be able to take bigger risks. I mean, I look at, you know, mine, you know, even moving to this company, you know, I thought about, okay, am I, am I really ready to do that? Should I just kind of hang out and keep doing what I’m doing?
Speaker 0 | 30:30.226
It feels like a risk. I mean, you were there almost 30, you’re going on 30 years. So you had where you, you were at a, a very, you know, for lack of a way to put it entrenched position where, you know, you were.
Speaker 1 | 30:42.216
I’m, I’m best friends with the CEO of the company. I mean, I’m, I’m in the leadership group. I, I sit on the board. I mean, it was a very comfortable role for me. But but there again, I look at it and I look at where I’m at now. And, you know, again, it’s it’s it’s just a new way of looking at things. And so it’s it’s good to kind of take those risks, because, again, the more risks that you take throughout your career, the easier it is to to to step up, you know, and quite honestly, you know, I’m a little older than you. I’m 53 and I look at this and I’m like, you know, I think I’m. set for the next 10 to 15 years, but if something were to occur, I’m not afraid of it. And so having that confidence allows me to sort of walk into a room, make some decisions. And it’s not from an arrogant standpoint. It’s just, it really is a confident standpoint of, of kind of what’s, what, what’s in my toolbox, all the things that I’ve done and then getting the affirmation from different folks. Like, yes, that’s, that’s kind of what we’re, we’re needing you to do. So.
Speaker 0 | 31:41.941
Bring it, you bring receipts. That’s what it says.
Speaker 1 | 31:44.242
Exactly. Exactly.
Speaker 0 | 31:46.172
So on the teams that you lead and that you have led over time, like what, what tactics do you use to, to develop your next generation of leaders that come behind you?
Speaker 1 | 31:56.838
I think I, you know, first, first and foremost, you know, I, I don’t do, I don’t do reviews. I don’t do performance appraisals. I would always kind of go back and forth with HR about these things. Cause I just, I don’t feel there’s value in there to be honest. I spend a lot of time, you know, I do one-on-ones pretty much anybody that’s a direct, you know, direct under me, I’ll do one-on-ones with on a consistent basis. And then I like to spend a lot of time just getting to know the team, you know, not trying to, you know, create a division, you know, as sometimes as leaders, we tend to kind of create a buffer around us. And I really don’t do that. I really try to spend time getting to know the different people in the department, outside of the department. So that’s first and foremost. I think too, you know, Spending and giving people, you know, I’m working through this now with my team now as far as allowing people to spend time on personal development. I think that’s huge. I mean, too much right now. We’re so focused on the task or the project and making sure that we can meet the bottom line on different things that we don’t spend enough time in development of individuals and giving them opportunities. So I’ve encouraged my team, like if you’ve got training opportunities and whether that’s through conferences, free online training. or paid training, you need to do that. And you need to dedicate time to that. You need to schedule that. I think a lot of times that it’s really simple things that you can empower your team to have permission to do that makes all the difference. So I think I do a lot of that. And then also asking, you know, you know, I was talking with somebody last week about a technology that I didn’t know anything about. And so giving that person you know, asking some probing questions so they can kind of present and share back to me their knowledge. It makes them feel good that, hey, I’m interested in what they’re doing. And at the same time, I’m actually learning. Like, you know, I learned the other day about some things in networking that I had never even considered simply because, you know, we just had a conversation about it. So again, trying to stay open to those kinds of things really has been, you know, impactful to be able to share those kinds of, you know, learnings.
Speaker 0 | 34:14.004
I’m going to shift us a little bit here into some more fun questions and probing the depths of your life history, if you will. So we always like to know here on the podcast, what was your first computer or technology? You mentioned how old you are, so you’re a child of the 80s, if you will. So. So what was your first system? Maybe you weren’t at a house. Maybe you were like, nope, my parents didn’t believe in computers. So we didn’t touch on it until I was like 15.
Speaker 1 | 34:48.458
So I was thinking about this. Actually, I was thinking about this last night in case the question came up. My very first computer was a Timex Sinclair. And I think we purchased it at like, I want to say it was like a Walgreens or a CV. It was like all you could do was base it. And you could do little basic programs. It plugged into a television. There was no monitor to it. But I remember that was the first. First computer I had, and I think the first personal computer that I bought was actually a Mac, and it was literally, like, I think it was… you know, it had to be like a thousand dollars. It was so expensive. It was one of those, you know, the first checks that I have, you know, I was, I was getting that. So that was kind of my first, I would say my first technology was that, but yeah, the Timex Sinclair. And then my kid always gets on my case because I wasn’t a gamer. I didn’t play with Atari. I remember my friends all had them. We didn’t have them. And so for me, that little Sinclair thing box was the, was really the only thing I did early on. And I spent a good amount of time with that thing, if I recall.
Speaker 0 | 35:52.016
So like writing basic programs and just learning how the thing worked.
Speaker 1 | 35:57.520
Yep. Yep. I was early adopter of a lot of that stuff. That’s why I think I got into early adopter of building websites and I learned HTML. And that’s what drew me into development because it was a way to build and create. Like I said, I didn’t go to school to write. code or to even be in IT. But I was always a builder and I enjoyed being able to utilize computers to make.
Speaker 0 | 36:24.861
So now being in the 80s, were you like, were you into like being at like BBSs and like things like that at all?
Speaker 1 | 36:31.567
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was strong into all. I mean, as soon as I could get in into a lot of that stuff, that was, you know, I was, you know, again, you look at some of my early stuff with, with even when Google first came out, I mean, I’ve I’ve actually got my full name as a Gmail because I was on it one of the first. I would say one of the first, but I was definitely early into that. I remember AOL and all of those. Again, I tease my kids all the time. I predate the internet, so I got to see all that stuff develop.
Speaker 0 | 37:00.619
There was a period of time. Do you remember how much AOL used to cost per hour? Like when they charged by the hour? It was totally crazy. It was like $7 an hour to connect. Right. And then if you didn’t have… Depending on where you live, there may not have been a local phone number exchange to call into. And then you would incur long distance charges. And there was a time when we moved. So I grew up in – I’m from upstate New York, but I spent 10 years in Austin, Texas in the 80s into the early 90s. And then after we moved back here, there wasn’t actually a local number for the particular place we lived. And I didn’t know that. first so like we would call into like aol and then my my father got like a like a 300 phone bill and he’s like oh yeah what the what the hell is this right right no i i had a few of those moments myself so that was uh yeah those are some learnings yeah so so uh if you had what what kind of the bbs that you were on were they all just like local things like oh yeah doing like gaming stuff so yeah i mean i was you know i was rpg games did you do rpg games
Speaker 1 | 38:09.246
No, not really. I was more or less, you know, I liked a lot of the, you know, the different chat communities that had gotten developed. I was heavy into music. And so I would try to follow things of that nature. So it was kind of just, you know, something to do. I wouldn’t say that I was entrenched in a lot of that. I was still, you know, again, growing up in the 80s, I mean, we still went outside and played, you know, so I was heavy into. you know, skateboarding and music and things of that nature. So that was really where I spent the majority of my time. I think for me, it wasn’t until I got to college that I really started to see like this whole computing thing being, you know, you know, not more than just a hobby or a pastime that there was, you know, really something of substance there.
Speaker 2 | 38:55.590
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Speaker 0 | 41:15.380
So something to share with listeners that people wouldn’t otherwise know or some like fun tidbit you know like you know hey guess what i was like a world karate champion you know in like 1987 you you know or whatever the case may be like it’s funny because i’m i’m a pretty boring guy i did so in co out out out of when i got out of college um
Speaker 1 | 41:38.509
i did tour with uh with disney so i was on a on a tour a choir tour there was like it was a whole like stage though that went to like different places Actually got to sing for two weeks at the Metropolitan Opera with that group. So that was kind of a neat thing in the past that I got to do. Outside of that, you know, I always go back to, like I said earlier, being able to live in Europe for two years as an expat was a game changer for me. I mean, it changed the trajectory of my career. My political aspects were definitely affected by living abroad. Um, you know, my, my, my, my, my views on a lot of things, social, um, were modified, um, from that. So I would say that was kind of the big thing for me. Um, that would be kind of interesting. I still play a lot of music. So I’m involved in my turrets. I’m in, you know, I was a worship leader for 25 years. Um, so I’ve done, you know, I’ve done some other things besides just, just computers. Um, but you know, I look at myself, you know, My proudest thing is, like I said, I’m a dad of five. I enjoy time with my kids. And now that I’m older, I’ve got one granddaughter, so that’s always fun.
Speaker 0 | 42:58.268
Oh, congratulations.
Speaker 1 | 42:59.489
Yeah, it’s been good. It’s been an interesting transition to now be old enough to be a grandfather. But no, honestly, sometimes I feel like I’m pretty boring. I don’t really have to.
Speaker 0 | 43:11.915
That doesn’t sound boring to me. That was a pretty interesting rundown there. So, you know, touring with Disney and stuff like that.
Speaker 1 | 43:19.203
Like it’s a little tour, you know, that kind of thing.
Speaker 0 | 43:22.745
So I’m glad you brought up, though, you resurfaced, you lived abroad for a couple of years. And from other guests that we’ve interviewed have had some, you know, different, different ones with different experiences, similar. They lived abroad. There was one gentleman who lived in South America for like 12 years and because his wife was from there. And so I asked him this question, too. But. From your leadership journey, how do you think that living abroad changed your views on leadership? And what, like, lessons did you take from leadership that you know you’re like, that was, I know that I learned that from living abroad?
Speaker 1 | 43:58.941
I think, you know, for me, you know, so we lived in Belgium, right outside of Brussels in a city called Waterloo. And I think having to, you know, when you develop, you have certain tools in your toolbox. But when you get there. speak the language and you really have to kind of use different avenues to learn kind of what’s going on in the project. That was a big lesson I had to learn from a leadership, meaning just because, you know, again, sometimes you’re going to have to really work at getting the full picture of what’s going on. And it’s sometimes, especially when you take away the language, I mean, when you can’t speak the language and you’re listening to others and you’re having to translate and you’re having to have. other conversations kind of after the fact really helped me to develop as a leader to say that, you know, again, sometimes you really have to work to get the full picture of things. Don’t just take things at face value. And so I think that was one of the big lessons that I learned from there and being patient. I mean, I had to learn a lot of patience because I couldn’t, you know, I was always one, I’m still that way. I like to be able to contribute. And so being in a situation where… I have to sort of absorb things, take a lot of notes, and then do a lot of work after the fact to really figure out what was going on in certain meetings and times. really helped me develop that patience. And I think as a leader, patience is one of those things that, that sometimes we, we, we, we don’t have, you know, there’s a lot of times where we have a lot of demands that we’re, we’re pushed to get things done. And having, having a lot of patience isn’t something that we’re really taught on how to, how to develop as a leader. And I think that’s one of the things that, you know, again, as I look at my overall career, that’s something that I really did pick up while I was, was living abroad.
Speaker 0 | 45:50.614
Thank you for sharing that. So we’re kind of coming to the end of our podcast episode here. I always try to end with asking our guests to share what, even though I know you just shared some really insightful advice about leadership that you picked up from living abroad, but just in a general sense, what advice do you have for other folks that are leaders or people who are aspiring to be leaders and what should they be taking away? What lessons have you internalized?
Speaker 1 | 46:19.770
So a couple of things, you know, I mean, obviously I’ve kind of taken, you know, the approach of kind of working my way through, you know, all these different experiences to develop as a leader. But I think the big thing that I would say is spend time getting to know folks. Definitely. I mean, don’t don’t make assumptions of where people are at. You know, taking the time to find out what what’s going on in people’s lives is a good thing. But I also think from my perspective, being a leader means that, yes, you’ve got to have an objective to try to draw things out of people, but more or less spending enough time, taking the time with folks so that you don’t just do it for them. I’m kind of thinking about a few different thoughts. They’ll cut that out and post edit, so I won’t worry too much on that one. Probably the other thing that I would say that more leaders need to do, and I was just thinking about this because this is one of the areas that I think I’ve seen past this because I work with a lot of consultants. I work with a lot of sales folks. As leaders, if I’m speaking to new young leaders, I would say stop trying to… especially in the IT world, you know, I think cut out all the BS. We use a lot of buzzwords. We use a lot of, you know, you sound really good, but are you really saying anything? So I think to young leaders, I would say, spend less time trying to do these really cute PowerPoint presentations and these elaborate discussions and being, you know, going to meetings and trying to be the one that speaks over everyone and spending enough time really listening. And then when you do speak, speak clear. Don’t try to come up with these elaborate, you know, monologues. Just kind of stick to the facts and then, you know, kind of cut the, I guess, kind of cut off all the BS and the jargon and just be real with people. I think a lot of times, especially in our industry, people try to, you know, they try to be more than they really are. And I think if you really approach people from a very personable level. You build that relationship first, and then you’ll be able to do a lot more with that as opposed to just always trying to be a director of things. So I don’t know. There’s a lot in there, so I’m sure that you’ll figure out how to make all that sound good. But that’s kind of where I would say.
Speaker 0 | 48:59.286
All right. Larry, thank you so much for investing your time with us on the podcast today.
Speaker 1 | 49:04.488
I appreciate it. It was a good time.
Speaker 0 | 49:06.128
That’s a wrap on today’s episode of Dissecting Popular IT Nerds. I’m Doug Kameen, and we look forward to coming to you on our next episode.
