Speaker 0 | 00:02.348
Hi nerds, I’m Michael Moore hosting this podcast for Dissecting Popular IT Nerds. I’m here with David Johnson, IT Manager at OTJ Architects. Hi David, how’s it going?
Speaker 1 | 00:12.253
Good, good. How about yourself?
Speaker 0 | 00:13.754
I’m doing awesome. Before we get into the segment we usually get into, what is OTJ Architects?
Speaker 1 | 00:22.278
So OTJ Architects is an architect firm based out of DC, but we have offices all throughout the US. Award winning, they do really, really good work. I myself can barely draw a stick figure. However, I can handle all their IT concerns. So that’s why they have me on board.
Speaker 0 | 00:38.925
Awesome. Awesome. Well, that’s fantastic. All right, we’ll dive in a little bit more than a second. But we start off with our icebreaker segment, usually. And it is called Random Access Memories. I ask a question and then you respond to whatever comes to your head first. It’s a fun thing, so enjoy it. Your first question is, if you could have…
Speaker 1 | 01:01.992
any office tool as a pet uh what would it be and uh what would you name it any office tool as a pet yep oh my goodness nothing comes to mind uh i want i want a very comfortable spinning chair like as a pet this the chair yeah and this is very weird but the idea that i wanted chairs because I have dogs and you know, dogs are like cuddly, like a dog will come up, cuddle you, like sit under you. Like if I have a chair, I imagine it’s that, but times like 10 more comfortable.
Speaker 0 | 01:40.376
I, you know, um, it’s funny cause I actually just, I usually have a different chair than the one I’m in right now. Um, but I had to swap it out because it was starting to come apart. Right. You know, you’ve just sat and you’re sitting in chairs too much. Um, so I just, so I just recently swapped out my chair. So, um, uh so yeah so uh there you go if so if you had a off tools pet it would be a chair right or a sentient sentient chair and would you say you would name it i’m terrible with names i don’t know it’d probably be something dumb like cheery or like blue like it’d be the color it’d be something lame no i like cherry actually actually that was really good that’s a good one we’re gonna go with that cherry the sentient chair I love it. What is the most inspiring or motivating IT related quote or slogan that you’ve heard or read?
Speaker 1 | 02:42.472
So it’s 100 percent not IT oriented, but it is actually on my LinkedIn. It’s a little background, but it’s it’s Winston Churchill. Is that success is born from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. Um, and I just, I love that quote. I’m sure if anybody’s been in it long enough, it’s almost like when you write in your first few PowerShell scripts and it failed every single time and then it finally works. And it’s, you know, you fail a thousand times to succeed once and you just can’t lose any of the enthusiasm. So I love that quote.
Speaker 0 | 03:14.800
I love that quote too. Um, uh, actually I have a little, uh, quote book where I write down quotes. So I actually might add that to my quote book. So, uh, that’s a good one. Uh, that’s a good one. Repeat that again. for everybody again so that they have it because I do love that.
Speaker 1 | 03:30.090
If I’m not mistaken, it is Winston Churchill. It’s success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.
Speaker 0 | 03:38.715
I love that. I love it. That’s a great quote. I appreciate it. What is the most amazing IT-related demonstration or presentation that you’ve seen or given?
Speaker 1 | 03:53.823
This is a fun one. and then it will also be corny. It’s most of my answers. So I used to work in Apple back in the day and at Apple, they had these things called like creatives and the creatives like train people. So my wife worked at Apple with me. We worked at the same store together and she was a creative. So she did the training. And one day there was this older couple and they came in to learn. The wife wanted to learn numbers and the husband wanted to learn. I don’t even remember what the husband wanted to learn, but we didn’t have a second creative. So all the staff thought it would be cute if. the married couple trained the other married couple so like i did a training with my wife and we trained this and they had to be like in their 70s like they didn’t have anything to do they probably were retired they probably were just you know getting out and learning um she trained numbers with you know it’s apple’s versions of excel so that’s exciting um and i don’t i maybe it was garage band i did with the like i trained the wife she trained the husband so it was couple train it was you know cute and adorable yes that is actually adorable
Speaker 0 | 04:54.496
uh well that’s pretty cool i actually really like that i’m sure they had a i’m sure they had a blast learning all that stuff
Speaker 1 | 05:00.823
Yeah. And then everybody that worked with us made a huge deal. They did. They were very extra. It was terrible.
Speaker 0 | 05:07.904
Did you think they like take like pictures and like everyone was like,
Speaker 1 | 05:13.266
oh, and it was like a freaking TV child show. Like it was it was terrible. But it was a good experience. Right.
Speaker 0 | 05:20.088
I love it. I love it. Now, well, speaking of that, you know, we were kind of chatting a little bit earlier. prior to this and you had mentioned uh um that you have kind of a passion for training and development right so um that kind of that kind of leads in really well uh um i didn’t plan that transition that was uh that was fantastic i love it when things do like that um so uh you know i’m sure when you were uh when you were training here you were actually in your element uh as well right um you What do you think is sometimes I think, you know, when we talk about training and when projects are created and stuff, training is kind of an afterthought, right? Why do you think that people think that training should be something that is an afterthought towards the end? Why do you think that happens?
Speaker 1 | 06:25.020
I think I think it happens because. So much of our time is built towards getting to a goal. And training can be a hard topic because a lot of time training is great. Like to most people, especially if you’re not good at it and you don’t know how to master it and do it, it slows things down. It’s like, oh, we got to do a week of training. But what about the person that doesn’t know how to cut on a computer? Or what about the brand new tech? Or what about the intern? Like when you hear it, all you hear is obstacles. All you hear. things that you have to overcome, things that could potentially slow you down. But I just think you got to be solution oriented. And those aren’t hard things. Those aren’t challenges. Those are fun opportunities. Those are things that you overcome and then you get the joy of overcoming them. So I think that’s why training is typically seen last. And it’s something that a lot of people don’t tend to enjoy because they just see it as breaks. It’s going to slow us down. It’s going to stop us from getting to our goal at this time. It doesn’t have to be that. If anything, it can accelerate you to your goal. You can build out champions. You can give people better skill sets. It helps with retention. Like if you train people and get them trained, they feel loyal. Like the benefits outweigh any downsides you could pitch at me. But so, you know, ramble, but that’s the answer.
Speaker 0 | 07:49.352
No, you’re allowed to ramble on a podcast. You know, we don’t like that air. No, you know, I was thinking about that. And it’s funny because I was going to ask you what are the benefits and you got there before I before I could ask it to you. I think that when we’re when we’re talking about training and and you mentioned so many of those benefits and stuff like that, there also seems to be a lack of training on how to train.
Speaker 1 | 08:27.240
Yeah.
Speaker 0 | 08:28.140
Right. I mean, I don’t know how to say that any other way, but I feel like sometimes people don’t understand the right way to train. And it’s not like there’s one right way to train. Right. You’re going to there’s it’s different. It’s different methods. It’s different ways. And it’s and also it depends on the content you’re training and depends on the people that you’re training. Why don’t you run us through some examples? of times that you have trained and some different methods uh that you’ve used um uh and had to use uh for for this training yeah so training it’s funny that you mentioned that because training typically um
Speaker 1 | 09:13.850
and i’m going to approach the question from looking at training an intern so someone that is going to be within the it department on the it staff not not training the client but training you know teammates you Um, a lot of it, it just stems from leadership, right? Like training is a leadership thing. It starts at C-suite. Then it comes to like management, however your organization is laid out. And a lot of times I think what gets in the way of training the most is just ego, right? Like we’re in a very fast paced business and the nature of our business is constant learning and constant growth. Like you can be an expert Monday and come Wednesday, you don’t know nothing. It just happens that way.
Speaker 0 | 09:57.996
The way you see David’s entire LinkedIn page. It’s nothing but certification. So he’s backing this up, FYI. It’s just so you’re aware. Okay, David, keep going.
Speaker 1 | 10:10.178
So like, and you’re right that everybody is different. And I always look at it from like my shoes. So with my journey and my career, I just had to figure it out. I had a lot of jobs that were trial by fire. It’s either make this work or you don’t got a job. And I’m sure like a lot of people have similar stories. And while I drew a lot of success from that and while that has helped me, I don’t really think that’s the best path for people. So one of the reasons I’m passionate about training is because I didn’t get it. So I give a recent example. So we recently just had an intern come in. He’s been with us for like two months, and we’re going to convert him over to full time. And the guy came with us from a really, really good background, did a great interview. However, when we got him in, he actually was like less qualified than what we did. thought, whatever it happens, right? I really needed like a junior system admin. And you know, like a system admin, you’re pretty much doing a little bit of everything. I need you to touch a little bit of everything. I need you to understand security. I need you to understand infrastructure. We’re an Azure environment. I need you to have a basic understanding of Azure and cloud and things of that nature. But I wanted to start him in front, even though I wanted him to be infrastructure and backend, I wanted to start him in front. the client and gauge his communication skills. Because if he can communicate with the client, he can communicate with the other system admin, he can communicate with me. And the nature of things changing and the nature of like, you know, depending on the access with him, he can flip a button and crash the whole system. Like you’ve got to be able to communicate and rapidly. So we just start off with like basic things. This may sound odd. I always like to start with communication and starting with empathy, right? can you put yourself in the client’s shoes? Can you understand it? I always start off with what’s called the three A’s. And I learned this very early in my career is acknowledge, align, and assure. Learn how to communicate with this in any conversation and everything will go where. That is always my starting point in communicating that way.
Speaker 0 | 12:19.893
So give us a dive into that real quick. What each one of those three A’s mean?
Speaker 1 | 12:25.975
Yeah. So I actually learned this from Apple. So like, I started my career at Apple. I was a sales guy. Then I was a genius, like pretentious title, like, but I still didn’t know anything.
Speaker 0 | 12:36.366
David, David, once a genius, always a genius. Okay. So don’t say I was one. I am a genius. Just keep going. Just keep doing that.
Speaker 1 | 12:44.172
Fair enough. So they actually taught us this. So the three A’s is acknowledge, align, and assure, right? Acknowledge the problem. Like somebody’s telling you something is wrong. You can do this, like in your relationship, girlfriend, wife, husband, whomever, like acknowledge it. They tell you that the keyboard is broken. Okay, it seems that we’re having some issues with the keyboard. Just spit back what they said. Active listening, right? Just say it back so they understand you’re listening. And then align. Aligning is pretty much just empathy streamlined. Put yourself in there. So spit out a situation that de-escalates the person. Because most times, if you’re talking to a tier one, tier two, help desk guy, right? You’re getting angry people. They’re only talking to you because something’s wrong. So you got to know how to deescalate. So, okay, I see that your keyboard broke. I can get why that’d be frustrating. You know, we all got work to do and you can’t really do work without your keyboard. You align with them super quick. In like two sentences, you’ve acknowledged the issue, you deescalate them, and then assure. Now, assure is really, really nice because you’re not assuring them you’re going to give them the solution they want. And I think that’s where most people make mistakes because end users have no idea what the right solution is. I’m sure we both very easily know that. You’re assuring them that a solution will be found and there’ll be options given for that solution. So like with that, it just, it lets them know something’s going to come out of it. And then there’s like more follow-up to that. Like don’t just give one, always give people options. Because if you give people options and you let them choose, it lets them feel like they’re in control. If the end user feels like they’re in control, even if you know it’s the right solution, they’ll think they thought of it. you know, you end up winning. Like it’s a whole psychology in how to talk and communicate and deescalate. And like I said, I came from Apple. Like they taught us this. Like Apple was very, very good in like communication first, technology second. They would always say, we can’t give you people skills, but we can teach you how to be a technician. And I’ve just carried that throughout my career.
Speaker 0 | 14:47.822
Yeah, that, you know, it’s interesting because I always thought kind of the same thing when it comes to hiring folks and stuff, which is… I always look for the ethics. I look for the personality. I look for that. And even if they’re lacking on technical, I feel like, OK, as long as I know where they’re lacking, we can train them up. Right. So and we can give them some development in that regards. Right. So it is you can you can teach tech easier than you can teach work ethic and and and certainly the personality skills and the ability to kind of communicate. Gosh, communication is such a big, big deal. it’s tough it’s tough and easy right because we you know we have we have AI to help us out a little bit right now and certainly that has become a little bit easier to communicate with folks but it’s also become harder right because you know if you just take AI and let it write things for you right it removes this it removes the uh well i think what you kind of uh stated is the second a there right uh um that ability to empathize with somebody and talk to them on a human level it does pull that out right it’s not genuine it’s not it it sounds formal great but it’s it it doesn’t pull the same uh human strings it’s just uh you can almost tell that it’s uh um that it’s it’s found a pattern and just put it there you know um uh uh that’s how i know that you know ai has not uh moved into uh uh sentience kind of like your chair at the moment but um but uh i uh you know i feel like uh um that’s that really is that communication is still even though it’s gotten a little easier to communicate uh harder messages um you still got to communicate them in the right way right um How do you communicate in your career? How do you take messages that may be very difficult? And it could be technically difficult or they could be just difficult to explain the process. Right. And how do you break them down and make maybe end users or even colleagues or even maybe even the C-suite? How do you break that down and make that an easier?
Speaker 1 | 17:28.239
easier pill swallow every every situation is slightly different uh but i’m you know i’m a country boy like i come from the middle of nowhere virginia and uh as country people do like just got lots of like random sayings and we love analogies so like i use that a lot like i’ll quickly compare i don’t know a server to a kitchen because every day people are in a kitchen they understand a kitchen uh you say server and you know people get like oh yeah i
Speaker 0 | 17:57.855
Please, please elaborate on the server kitchen example. You’ve now you’ve put it out there. So I need to understand the server kitchen analogy.
Speaker 1 | 18:07.697
I mean, I’m trying to think of one on the fly. OK, OK. Like, like just basics. Right. So let’s think about basics. Like a server is like a big computer if you’re explaining it to like a layman. Right. So people people don’t understand the difference between like RAM and storage. So I use a kitchen for that. Like if you are in a kitchen, like your storage is your cabinet space. You go get groceries. You can get as many groceries as you can fit in your cabinet. However, like your RAM are the burners on the stove. If you have four burners, you can cook four things at once and multitask. If you have eight, you can cook eight things. However, if you got four burners and you’re trying to cook seven things, you might run into some issues. And then, you know, your processor is the actual chef. like how fast can he move how skilled is like so you know like for like me and you like that level of detail isn’t necessary if you say ram i got you instantly is the cast is the cash like the sous chef uh the cash is probably more so like if you got an apron and got like pockets in the apron you can quit but see but now now it’s more fun and engaging and like you know this i i think It’s little stuff like that, right? Like, or you can do cars. Like, you just got to find something that’s relatable. And the nice thing is, like, I know we tend to be, like, remote now, but even just looking at somebody’s, like, background. And if you see that they have a bunch of sports memorabilia, like, try to relate it to sports. If they have a bunch of, like, cars, try to, like, relate. So, like, I myself am not a specialist. I’m not fantastic at networking. I’m not fantastic. at cybersecurity, I’m a very, very good generalist. I know a little about a lot. And because of that, It helps me communicate better. Like, so, so yeah.
Speaker 0 | 20:06.107
You know, the fun part is about, you know, you bring up a good example, actually, which is interesting because in IT, you can specialize, right? And you can say, I’m going to go all cybersecurity. I’m going to go storage. I’m going to go in all these different, different, and there’s so many to do. Or you can be like, I’m just going to dabble in all of it. Right. And and be able to be a generalist and which is a tough, tough thing to be and totally needed because sometimes you you know, you need to wear multiple hats and move around. I think it’s a I think it’s a really, really good point you bring up from a general standpoint. If you’re if you’re talking about communication, if you’re talking about training. Right. Um, being able to, uh, being able to adapt quickly and change and, uh, uh, and, and be able to move from one thing to another, uh, and also be able to train and communicate that to others is, is, is a great skill to have. Right. Um, I, you had, uh, I want to talk for a second about, uh, about this, uh, um, cause I thought it was, it was pretty interesting. You had a post about hybrid work. Speaking of adaptability, right? And you outlined your day, you know, on there and the differences of it and actually put some notes about why hybrid work matters, right? I thought it was really interesting. And, you know, I wanted to take a moment because… This has been an interesting kind of back and forth in a lot of different places. You know, people were like remote work during COVID. Right. And then other people were like, hey, we’re going to do, you know, no, you got to come back in the office post COVID. Everyone’s coming back in the office. Right. And then and then it seems like, you know, this back and forth thing is is almost settled in some. some form of fashion, most people in some type of a hybrid form. Right. Um, what is your view on this hybrid work? Uh, um, cause I’m, you know, I, I see the, uh, I see the posts, but what’s your, what’s your view on this?
Speaker 1 | 22:40.944
So, uh, so I actually preference this, which something that I think is funny, but maybe it’s not funny. Uh, I actually made that post because I was curious if, um, the HR department at my job was like watching my LinkedIn. Uh, So it was like a. It honestly was, that doesn’t mean it wasn’t like genuine. Like I admit what it was, but it was just to see it like if I’m being monitored. I don’t know if anybody else has done something like that before, but I don’t know. I found that funny. But so for me, right, hybrid work is very important. I’m going to give like three quick reasons and then I’ll kind of elaborate. I think hybrid work is important because you get a bigger talent pool. to reach from, right? Like before, like you probably want somebody within maybe like a 50 mile, 25 mile radius because you got, you know, I’m in the DC area, so we have traffic. Like you want somebody who can get to the office. That’s a limitation and a barrier right there. Are they located in a way that they can get to the office and get there on time? With hybrid, that’s not so much as an issue, bigger pool to pull from. I also think that It involves a better skill set to be able to work hybrid than to sit in an office. The type of people you need to look for if you know that you’re going to have hybrid and you know you’re not going to monitor, you need people who are, it’s what all the freaking things say, but they’re self-starters. They can work without little supervision. They don’t need to be micromanaged. Every time you look at a job post, they say those things. I don’t know how they actually gauge it. And then third, I think it’s… It makes me want to stay at the company I met longer. So it’s retention. I like to talk about retention a lot. It’s something I talk about with my C-suite and my leadership because, you know, IT typically has very short retention. Like I bring somebody on my team, I don’t really expect them to be there for more than two years. And it’s not because I don’t think we have an amazing opportunity. It’s not because we’re not paying them. It’s just that, like, it’s just kind of the nature of the roles and the environments. So the post, though, I’ll get back to that. So I’m married. I’ve been married for 11 years. A beautiful, beautiful woman. And we have two kids. I want to say the day I made the post, I think my wife was sick. And the kids had, like, dentist appointments. And, like, that’s an instant, like, monkey wrench, right? Like, I know I’m going to work remote. I’m going to get on my computer. I’m going to start doing things. But now, like, you know, she’s sick. And she could have. But she. She could have saw it through. Like, it would have been harder for her, but she could have took them and been sick. And, like, but because, like, I’m hybrid, I was able to say, you know what, baby? I got it. You stay home. You take care of yourself. So, you know, brownie points for me. I got my wife happy. I’ll take those any day. I got to take the kids to the dentist. And I think that may have been, like, a three-hour ordeal-ish. And then I got home. And I think I got home before, like, 11. So did it put me behind? Yeah, a little bit. Like normally I’m on my computer at like 7.30, 8 o’clock and I didn’t touch it, but there were no fires luckily. And I have Outlook and Teams on my phone. So while they were at their dentist appointment, I think I sent a couple of team messages out, let my team know what’s going on. But I also had a fantastic team that like if I’m not at my computer and present, like I can pass something to them. Like, hey, this just came through. Can you do this for me real quick? That’s a whole nother conversation is building people who can pick up slack and building.
Speaker 0 | 26:35.013
Well, that jumps back to your training and development skills.
Speaker 1 | 26:38.274
Exactly.
Speaker 0 | 26:39.014
Right.
Speaker 1 | 26:39.334
So it it just worked. And so I got home and and when I got home, my wife said she had the kids from there. My daughter’s only like two. So her nap time is like eleven thirty ish noon. So as soon as I got home, I was around that time and I just started working. And I mean. I tend to stay on my computer late anyway. Like there are nights I’m working till like 10 p.m. Just, you know, nature of the job. We got to roll out or something like that. So it’s not like I’m cheating the books or I’m like leaving early or like, you know, not doing work. It’s just I chose to do it at a different time. Work like the work-life balance and the piece of that, like, you know, like you hate to play devil’s advocate, but. What if my wife took them out and because she was sick and because she was like lightheaded, she got in a car crash. Now my day is even even worse than what it would have been if I just took it over. So that ease of mind and ability to pivot and move around and just still keep everybody happy. So it just works like there is in my current position. There is not an immediate need for me to be in the office. Granted, there are times I do need to be in the office. Like one of our conference rooms went out this week, so I had to go in and physically like fix it, you know, take the TV off the wall, redo cable wiring, like, you know, no grunt work. But typically speaking, I can go into the office one day a week and it still works like a well-oiled machine. And I think a lot of people, that’s what you want to get to, right? You want to automate certain tasks. You want to do certain things so that one nice thing about IT is that you actually are good at it. You can actually make your life easier. If everything is manual and hard, that’s true. Good at your job.
Speaker 0 | 28:24.725
Yeah. The quieter, the better, right? So it’s, Hey, why do we need it? Well, the reason you need it is because I’ve been keeping it quiet. So, yeah, you know, it’s actually really funny. I’ve had this conversation before with, with executives, because the better you do, the more they question why they need you. Right. And and so, you know, what I’ve had to do is is actually say, OK, well, you should understand what is making it so that we can keep it this way. Right. And and then I start, you know, kind of establishing, hey, here is all the items that I do and that my team does that keep you stable and secure and stuff like that. So if if. if you didn’t if you just stopped doing all these things right sure day one day two up to maybe day 30 you’d be fine maybe right uh but after that you’d start to feel it right and uh and and then you’d start to really feel that uh um not having uh updates pushed out not having uh um you know uh your stuff monitored um not having the adequate the security protections not keeping on to a you know keeping in touch with the business and making sure you’re staying on top of what they need. All of these items are things that the team does. How do you communicate? uh out to the um uh you know your executives and make sure they understand uh yes i am my team and me we’re doing a great job but uh i know it’s quiet but we’re doing a great job yeah it it’s
Speaker 1 | 30:18.658
such a good point it just it really really is um and and even with the training and development like one thing like we’re a small team so uh it’s myself i got one system admin senior, whatever you want to call them. We just bring it on a junior system admin. And then we have a tier two help desk guy. So the C-suite is encouraging me to be less hands-on, which is painful. So really it’s three guys actively doing the things and me supposed to be overseeing and not doing it.
Speaker 0 | 30:53.978
And they’re right. You’re going to need to have to be less hands-on. Yeah.
Speaker 1 | 31:00.434
So one thing we talk about, and I especially talk about this with my sister and I, is that every day you got to justify your job because every day they want to fire you. Because we know IT is a spend. We don’t bring in revenue. Yes, we can justify that we saved the company X amount of dollars, but we’re not actively bringing in money. So whenever it comes time to look at budgets and to clear up pay space, they always try to start with us. Like, do you really need this? this amount of people. We’re already a small team, so I’m always shocked that they want to try to pick on us anyway. But I think it’s to your point, right? Even though I can translate things and I can make things easier, I think those call for the time for the boring detail answer. This is everything we did this week. This is everything we’re coming up. One thing I try to do for my C-suite is have projects posted two quarters ahead. So like we were already in Q3, but I already have plans for Q4 and Q1. So like whenever these conversations come up, I can point to a project. Well, I won’t be able to finish this if we let such and such go because this is what they do on a day to day. I won’t be able to do this. And like this is why X is important. And if you end up letting this person go, we’re going to have to spend more money because like one thing I always like to do is I like to compare it. I say we can either buy software or a vendor or we can hire a body. Like, which one do you prefer? Because I’m sure, you know, thousands and thousands of vendors to pick from and they’re all designed to replace staff. However, with convenience come certain sacrifices. Like if you want a custom solution and you want it to fit the culture and you want people to speak and talk to the culture where I’m at, that’s what they want. Software vendors don’t accomplish that. So they actually want physical bodies based on what leadership’s vision is. So I just articulate their vision back to them. This is the vision of the company. This is where you tell me you want to go. We can only get there with bots. If you want to sacrifice the vision and change the vision, we can go vendor and software. However, we’re still spending money. It’s $100,000 out of the way. We can pay $100,000 for this vendor, or we can give it to a guy having his salary, and you actually get more than just the one thing. So it’s just nonstop conversation, really.
Speaker 0 | 33:27.570
It’s interesting. You talk about having software or having a person. And one of the things about third party software is that there are other companies out there using it. So if you use third party software, what you actually and it doesn’t happen to everything. I mean, you’re going to have to use third party software for different things. But and I would and I would put the. asterisk here if you have customizable third-party software it’s a different story but um if you’re using third-party software you’re actually losing a competitive advantage uh you know so you’re you’re just doing what everyone else is doing and so you can’t be marketably better that than other people um because you know the the true trick in the in the trade here is is the processes that you have in place in the company to make yourself more productive and have better customer service or whatever the different goals of your company are. And that’s how you make your competitive advantage. That’s how you stick out. And I actually done, prior to being a host, I actually done a podcast prior to this about, it was on the same podcast I was a guest. And it was about not treating IT as a cost center, right? And and the reason for that was, you know. I had so many people coming up and saying, you know, hey, we need to cut this and cut this and cut this and cut this. And and I was like, I just turned around and I said, you know, I’d go out to the CFO and I’d say, yeah, I’d say what? How about you show me everybody’s, you know, operational costs and I help you cut the overall company’s costs. Right. And. And what happened is I would find multiple places where there could be synergy, where you could say, you’d be like, they’re using this software, this software, this software. They all do the same thing. You’re paying multiple.
Speaker 1 | 35:41.304
I have that exact problem right now where I’m getting rid of software because we have three software that do the same function. So I actually went to leadership and I said, what kind of company are we? Are we the kind of company that says, this is how we do it. And when we hire people, we let them know. this is our software or do we say it’s a la carte you can pick whatever you want but now we got a three hundred thousand dollar expenditure because we want to let everyone be happy and get we have three people using this one vendor and paying fifty thousand like what like it
Speaker 0 | 36:13.305
is i’m sorry to cut you off but i’m literally having that exact conversation you’re absolutely right i i so in that regard it is first of all helping you save money from the organization, from overall the organization. So right now they’re not a cost center because now they’re actually strategically helping you save money within the company. On top of that too, they can help optimize workflows throughout the entire environment. If there’s anything that IT is good at is optimizing workflows and pointing out processes that could be better, right? Why are you doing it that way? Why wouldn’t you just do this, right? So in changing… uh the methodology to say hey uh let it let us uh take a look at some of these workflows you have these pot these processes you have in place and let’s optimize these things right um you can now uh um now you’ve got uh um more productivity so again now you’re leveraging it and only to save you money but also to improve your processes so there’s two things right there right um and i keep going so many things that it can do uh, if, uh, uh, if the C levels will harness it, right. Um, if you don’t have it, uh, and this is for any, any business leaders, uh, um, listing out there, if you don’t have it looking at your operational costs and trying to get them reduced overall for the entire company, you’re losing out because we’re going to figure it out there. Um, and, and the second thing is if you don’t have it, uh, um, looking at, uh, your processes from the other groups and trying to, um, improve them. You’re losing out, man.
Speaker 1 | 37:52.726
And then to piggyback on what we were talking about earlier and kind of how it all mingles and mixes together. And I can’t take full credit. This is something I learned from my mentor, Harold Petz. In the company I’m at now, they were with an MSP. Didn’t like the MSP. They wanted internal IT. So Harold came in and he started it. Then I picked it up and I’m finishing it. He got everybody on my team. started as an intern. So when you do that, you give them intern pay and then you train them up. So to a degree, they are slightly underpaid, but these are a lot of people who, and when I say underpaid, I don’t mean like we’re trying to get over on them. It’s more like things traditional, like apprenticeship.
Speaker 0 | 38:39.346
They’re getting experience rather than the money. I mean, there’s a trade-off. There’s always a trade-off there.
Speaker 1 | 38:46.949
So even from a salary standpoint, we’re getting fantastic value. What we’re getting out of these guys for what we’re paying for is huge cost savings. And I had this conversation with the CFO like, all right, some of these guys have been here for like a year, two years. We have to start paying them what they worth. And when we have a conversation about what they’re actually worth, it’s eye-opener. But that’s a benefit to being able to train and develop raw talent. You can get two years. I like sports, right? We’re trying to get a Super Bowl on a rookie contract, baby. That’s what we do. Yeah,
Speaker 0 | 39:19.526
yeah, that’s true. I mean, and you know, and that it’s interesting, too. And you have to invest in that. There’s you bring some somebody in that doesn’t have the skill set, and then you train them to have the skill set. Why would you let them walk? Right? You just train them. You just train them on everything you need to train them. You became made them be an expert. Don’t let them walk to another company because there’s two reasons for that. One, they’re trained on all the things that you need.
Speaker 1 | 39:47.341
Right? Exactly.
Speaker 0 | 39:48.522
your way and your processes and two they’re gonna go to another company yeah right you don’t want so you don’t want that walking off to a competitor right again you’re losing the competitive advantage there so um yeah that’s a great that’s a great point on that i like that
Speaker 1 | 40:04.194
No. So that’s good. And, you know, that’s a that’s an interesting C-suite conversation in and of itself. Like, do you let talent walk? Because then you’re going to spend a bunch of money trying to interview higher. And, you know, that’s a that’s a different conversation, different day.
Speaker 0 | 40:19.198
You you don’t let talent walk. You don’t let talent you don’t let talent ever think it needs to walk. Right. Because when you let talent walk, it’s already too late.
Speaker 1 | 40:31.621
Yeah.
Speaker 0 | 40:32.882
You can’t let talent think that it has to a day. Talent should always be engaged. They should always be given what they need. And by the way, it’s not always money. Right. Keep in mind, people are all different, you know, and and you had mentioned empathy. Right. First, folks and a family. It’s about, you know, I mean, listen, it’s about we’re all getting paid to do it. So there’s a little bit about money. But but. Sometimes it’s more about, and I’ve seen people make this thing. I could go here and I could make more money, but then I’d be working so many hours, I won’t be happy to spend it with my kid. And I won’t be able to help my wife out when she’s got a problem and I need to take my kids to the dentist. These are the items that some people, it matters more to them. And so it’s not always about money. It’s actually really important. to look at your, uh, your staff and identify what’s important to them and have those conversations and talk to them about it so that you understand when time comes that you’re, you’re making sure that they’re getting exactly what they need. Some people it’s like learning, like, you know, once they hit that, that model of like, I’m not going to learn anymore. Uh, they decide to update the resume and move. So it is a, it is definitely a, uh, an interesting. uh, thought process on, on retention. Retention is, uh, um, and I, and you’re probably doing something really great here with the training and development, because I know, uh, those folks coming in want, and they’re hungry to be trained up, to be developed, to get that, get those, uh, those things. And, and that’s, that’s huge. Uh, you don’t want to put somebody in, I think you, you nailed it when you said this, you know, you were put in a position where you just had to figure it out, you know? I think I got a good term, uh, uh, fake it till you make it right. Uh, uh, you know, and, uh, and, uh, you know, to a degree, sometimes as it folk, we need to do, we need to do that sometimes, you know, um, there’s so much change. There’s so much stuff. I mean, you know, we’re constantly researching, but we can’t know at all. Um, but I do think that, uh, being able to explain and have, uh, um, and have those conversations with good communication and good training and stuff like that, you’re able to get people to where they need to go. So I’m glad, you know, I’m sorry to hear that you kind of were given that little, not given enough training. But I think maybe that was by design so you could implement better training and stuff for your folks and learn that way. So I’m actually glad that that’s the way you took it and that you were able to. uh get that moving um uh i i wanted i want to take a minute there’s a couple things that uh that pop out here and i want to kind of move into um the uh it crystal ball which is our our last segment um and it always focuses on the future of it but i actually wanted to spend a little more time than i used to i used i used to do that i used to on this one but i actually want to spend more time because there’s a couple different things i want to talk about with you you in regards to uh where we’re going right um the first thing i want to do is i want to talk about training and development and i want to talk about where you see training development going in the next five years there’s so much right now that’s already happening because folks were able to sit there and you know uh pop in pop into ai and be able to kind of learn stuff on the fly Whether it’s right or not, it’s a whole different story. But, you know, they’re able to at least get some information and start going there a lot more than they were just a few years ago. So where do you see training and development going?
Speaker 1 | 44:36.794
So I think for training and development, I think it’ll be different because there’s a lot of nuance within the industry. Like for me and my role, I’m providing like the IT services for a company. So, you know, we’re doing. Networking, cybersecurity, help desk. So it’s generally everything. I think the fundamentals are changing. Right. Like, like I’ve been in IT for like 10 years. So like when I came in, I think you can know a lot less starting than what you can now. And, you know, you have those you have those good resources that are supposed to be like key indicators. Like if somebody has like a CompTIA A plus, that’s supposed to mean like, oh, they know the fundamentals. But like, no, like like honestly now, like you almost need to know scripting just started. Um, it, it, the, it, the, the bar is a lot higher for entry. Um, and plus like, you know, with, with, with YouTube and podcasts and everyone talking, like a lot of people want to get into IT because they think it is a very big paycheck in a short period of time. Um, but that comes with a lot of knowledge, uh, and, and to your point, like fake it till you make it, like you can get AI to type up this bomb resume, fake your way through an interview and get there day one. And like, I don’t know. you don’t know how to troubleshoot a printer. The cost of entry is a lot higher. So when you talk about training and development, I think you have to start there. Like, what is the current cost of entry? Because when I think cost of entry, I still think, I think tier one. Like, I got to pick up a winter intern, right? So I’m actively doing this right now. I need, like, one of my guys is going to go on paternity leave. Very happy for him when I have this first kid. But I’m going to miss him. Yeah. So so I’ll probably step into his role, but I just need somebody to monitor the ticket queue and like watch the day to day stuff. Right. So I really need someone really good basic communication skills, because like I said, for me, I take that over technical skills any day. I need somebody who can work a ticket queue. And and there are a bunch of ticket queues out there. In my opinion, that’s like a common sense thing. Like you can see this ticket. You. take it and claim it, put your name on it, and then you just see it to finish. I like problem solvers. I don’t care if you know the answer. I care how you think about it. I want to know what you do when you don’t know. I think that’s more important than if you actually do. So to me, those are just three quick indicators. Basic communication, what do you do when you don’t know what to do? Because that’s probably going to be 90% of your job. How do you handle communication within the team? Like, I know we got SOPs. I know we got paperwork. Can you figure it out on your own? Like, how long does it take you to buckle and escalate? There’s nothing wrong with escalating. That is what the higher tier people are there for. However, like, are you escalating as soon as you get a ticket without trying to fail? Like, I want people to fail every single day. Like, are you comfortable failing? Once again, rambling, but like when I look at like the entry, so… So when I think of training and development, like those are the fundamental things I’m looking for and I can build off there. If you give me a tier one, I know I can give them the tier two. I know I’m getting the tier three. And then we can start doing some system admin stuff. Let’s start looking at Microsoft Admin Center. Let’s start looking at Exchange Admin Center. Let’s go take a trip to the server. Like let’s talk about Azure. And then like I always like to throw out like complimentary things when we do the training. So like the. Like Microsoft got a bunch of certifications, but that like their basic one is like the AZ-900. And it’s just like cloud fundamental. Like what is the cloud? What is like, like, okay, like you’re telling me you’re interested in this and you want to interview for it. Go get that AZ-900. Like I get it. You got test anxiety. You don’t like to do it. Go try it. Like you need a 700 to pass. You got a 650. I like that. Like, like, like show me effort though. Like, so, you know.
Speaker 0 | 48:59.236
So, so I know I like how you said describe that part. So now that we have kind of those, uh, that kind of a, um, piece defined, right. Um, how, how do you see that morphing and changing in the next five years? You know,
Speaker 1 | 49:18.364
it’s, it’s going to be AI, like, like AI is the new rush. I had to, I had to block an AI company wide today. Cause, uh. We had our all hands meeting and somebody had downloaded AI and it was like a note taker. And then it sent everybody an email after the meeting and a bunch of people freaked out because they thought it was a cyber attack and I just blocked it. So it’s going to come down to how does AI play into the workforce? And I don’t do I think AI is at a point where it’s going to start replacing IT jobs? No. Like, God, no. I think it’s not there yet.
Speaker 0 | 49:58.665
It’s I mean, there’s there’s other jobs it’s taking, but it’s not. it’s not yet at it uh uh all the way i mean it’s it’s a uh um you know it’s funny you say that because uh the there’s so many problems with it right now i i i argue with it daily and uh and i keep telling it it’s messing up it’s also getting lazy i don’t know if you notice that it do you notice it’s also getting lazier well well it’s funny because like i i’ve read articles that like the you know originally they had the algorithms and they were feeding the data
Speaker 1 | 50:31.912
but now some of the data that’s being ingested is data from other ai models so the ai is training the ai which is what i think is making it dumb you know i’m not an expert but like i think we’re running out of data to give give to it um but yeah we’ve
Speaker 0 | 50:48.863
we’ve run out of uh right it’s like it’s hungry for data we run out sorry this is all you get um no i and i do i do think i think it’s getting lazy i think it’s uh on my back i asked her to do something the other day and it was like yeah, here’s how you do it. I’m like, no, no, I’m telling you because I want you to do it.
Speaker 1 | 51:08.166
I think some of those fundamental tech jobs will always be there. You will always need a network guy. You want to get into IT and make a bunch of money, go learn networking. You will always have a job. You might be angry and drink a little, but you’ll have a job. That’s not going anywhere. I think… like the entry level jobs would be there tier one to tier three. I know a lot of people don’t like to stay in those because the pay doesn’t reach and cost of living is getting high. The biggest impact is probably going to be at like that, that system admin level, right? The implementation. And I think you’ll, I think what will happen is you’ll get a lot of vendors that will pop up and those vendors will sell dreams like they always do because they’re just salesmen and their dreams will be built on some. shitty AI. So you’ll go spend 60K for this vendor, you’ll try to implement it, it’ll screw up your system, you’ll end up doing more maintenance, and then you’ll be locked in a contract for three years. I think a lot of companies are going to get screwed over with that contract. But I mean, that happens anyway now without AI.
Speaker 0 | 52:20.071
You know what I love about this segment so far with you is you have pointed out everything that’s possibly wrong and where things are going to go wrong in the future. Oh,
Speaker 1 | 52:30.035
sorry.
Speaker 0 | 52:30.856
you know sometimes you’re like oh you know you have it’s it’s this cloudy vision is this i mean it’s beautiful vision of the future where it’s just everything that’s gonna be great and everything like that and then sometimes i get people on here they’re like yeah no no that’s not gonna no no it’s just gonna get worse what are you talking about it’s gonna cost you more money it’s gonna you know and you know what there’s a there’s some truth to that i think that there um uh uh we would be unwise to um think that everything will just work and get better because this exists And as we’ve already seen, AI has done a lot of things that have made things a little bit harder. Right. You can now see if you look at your news feed. Right. You can tell the AI written articles. Right. With the AI generated art. Right. I mean, you’re just like, oh, that’s and there’s no there’s no substance to it. Right. It’s different. So.
Speaker 1 | 53:29.624
I think it would be a reemergence or a renaissance for a very human element in IT again, which is very funny. And of course, I’m saying this because this is my skill set and I excel at this. I’m hoping this happens. Because the typical, you know, the prototype is that the IT guy is like shutting the network closet. He’s got a bunch of wires. He can’t communicate. He doesn’t like to talk to people. I think with… With things being remote, like people not being like, like, like we’re humans, we need to communicate, we need to like touch each other, like we need to, like, I think there’s going to be a renaissance for a human element in IT. And I think within the next, like you said, about five years, like, I think that is where companies are going to excel. I think people who work on those soft skills will actually have a faster career trajectory than more so focused on the tech skills, of course, like, you know. if you’re a coder, you’ll get a 300K salary and you’ll have the place. But I think because of AI, because of remote work, some companies will try to revisit, how do we put the human element back in IT? And that’s going to be the million dollar question.
Speaker 0 | 54:46.405
All right. Well, I’m going to drop the mic there. Nerds, I’m Michael Moore. I’ve been hosting this podcast for Dissecting Popular IT Nerds. I’ve been with David Johnson, IT manager at… OTJ Architects. David, thank you so much. I appreciate it. And wow, what a fascinating ending to that discussion about training and stuff like that. Thank you.
Speaker 1 | 55:10.381
Yeah, no problem.
