Speaker 0 | 00:02.208

uh most of the time there’s not anything we need to do uh as as far as like you know editing goes and stuff like that um so i just create a break point here at the beginning we kick into the podcast we have a pretty open you know casual open easygoing conversation and uh and towards the end we’ll just wrap it up these interviews usually last somewhere between 40 to 45 minutes and then i package it up and ship it off to the post-production team excellent All right. So I’m going to go ahead and I’ll create a break point here and then I’ll kick right into it and we’ll get going. Oh, I also mentioned everybody that it’s because you’re familiar with podcast. This may not be news to you, but you’ll sometimes you might hear me as I talk back and forth because it’s an audio only podcast. I will you know, I might sound like I’m interrupting you, but I’m really trying to make sure that there’s space where people hear me speaking. And along with you, you know, because. they can’t see me nod you know so just uh like um you know just make sure you you know when you when you hear that i’m not trying to interrupt you you can keep talking and stuff like that let’s just go with the flow sure all right uh okay i’ll create a break and then we’ll get still in here Welcome back, everyone, to Dissecting Popular IT Nerds. I’m your host, Doug Kameen, and today I’m talking with Eric Scheider, an enterprise architect in the IT space. Welcome to the show, Eric.

Speaker 1 | 01:33.555

Oh, thank you. Pleasure to be here.

Speaker 0 | 01:36.996

So before we got on the show here, we were talking about the weather, of all things. And so you live in Texas, where it’s hot.

Speaker 1 | 01:50.992

Indeed, yeah. We’re about 91, 92 right now. Yeah,

Speaker 0 | 01:56.075

and as a guy who grew up in, I grew up in Austin, Texas myself, although I live in upstate New York now, but that’s kind of a relief from a lot of days in the dead of summer, though. 91’s kind of like almost refreshing for you.

Speaker 1 | 02:13.047

Indeed, yeah. Originally from Kentucky, we moved down here about two years ago.

Speaker 0 | 02:18.931

Okay.

Speaker 1 | 02:19.720

So we did an adventure in 2022. Bit of a culture shock from a temperature perspective or weather perspective based on what we were used to.

Speaker 0 | 02:32.309

So if I might ask, maybe what prompted you? Was there something specific about the Tyler area or something like that that made you feel like that was where you wanted to be?

Speaker 1 | 02:41.996

Think of it as it came to a point, one. My spouse is originally from Texas area. So that helps a lot of family down here. And she had a grandmother that was in the kind of the mid stages of dementia or Alzheimer’s. So that was one of the key points is we wanted to be close to her so that we could help her and her daughter as part of the caregiving aspect. As she transitioned into her final state. Unfortunately, she has passed. I’m sorry to hear that. We had a celebration of life just this last weekend. So it was a very joyous time, but it turned into the conversation around, okay, what area of Texas do we want to focus on? Houston, Austin, San Antonio, Dallas. Being close to Dallas, which is where her grandmother’s from, we didn’t want to be part of that urban life, so we chose a little bit smaller community. And housing prices, taxes, and school systems were some of the key points that we took into account as part of that decision process. Tyler was there.

Speaker 0 | 04:12.395

Now, Tyler is… if I remember from my youth, Tyler is known for its roses.

Speaker 1 | 04:19.318

That’s correct.

Speaker 0 | 04:20.578

Like it’s, it’s like, and, and I don’t really, I don’t remember the details. I just know that they’re like, there’s the Tyler Rose and that they grow a lot of roses there. Or what, what’s the, what’s the, what’s the Rose story as you know it anyways.

Speaker 1 | 04:36.825

So I don’t have a lot of context on the history of why they’re the Rose city, but. I can tell you from my about 18 months here in Tyler, they definitely, throughout the city, there are large blooms and rose beds all throughout.

Speaker 0 | 04:58.951

They love their roses.

Speaker 1 | 05:00.852

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 0 | 05:04.194

But and, you know, you mentioned about your, you know, your family and your mother and her, you know, her final stages. But that, you know, in the health care space, I make a quick transition here to some of your work history. You’ve been in the health care space yourself. So like this is there’s a there’s a full circle element to this for you, I think. And that a lot of your most recent roles have been in working with for providers of tools to help nursing homes and, you know, extended. living that are

Speaker 1 | 08:50.667

you’re back uh can you hear me oh yeah loud and clear okay

Speaker 0 | 09:03.696

yeah yeah you i could hear you and your audio or your video was working for quite a while but then eventually you froze and then you were gone

Speaker 1 | 09:16.264

You were getting into transitioning over to healthcare.

Speaker 0 | 09:21.426

Yeah, yeah. So, just a second. Your video’s not working a few.

Speaker 1 | 09:26.328

There you go.

Speaker 0 | 09:28.689

And your old one is, your old whatever it is is still here. It’ll drop out eventually. Okay, so, alright, I’ll create a new breakpoint and then we’ll jump in. And so, you know, transitioning a little bit here to your work life, you’ve been… in the healthcare space yourself for quite a while in various places, working for software companies and organizations doing work with senior living facilities and nursing homes and stuff like that, if I’m not mistaken, right?

Speaker 1 | 10:06.807

That’s correct.

Speaker 0 | 10:09.009

So can you tell us a little bit about, you list yourself, you have enterprise architect, which is a term that was, I don’t call it new to me, but as a CIO, I’ve been doing enterprise architecture work for… my organization as well. But in your context, what is enterprise architecture? What is enterprise architect in the roles that you’re doing?

Speaker 1 | 10:31.783

Yeah, so there are a couple different flavors of enterprise architecture. So the way if I were to use an analogy, the way that I typically articulate a definition is, you know, think of an enterprise architect as more of a city planner. So city planner is going to provide frameworks and patterns and practices that the city can use as they define different zones and build their cities. You’ve got other enterprise architects that are focused more on the details. So they’re actually laying out pipelines, electrical and other infrastructure. And then you’ve got… what I would call a third flavor of enterprise architect focused more on business strategy and acting as a liaison between your business and IT partners to help not only drive strategy, but to plan, prioritize, and execute on that strategy.

Speaker 0 | 11:40.502

So you’ve done all these roles or you’ve, you’ve, you’ve specialists in one of them or, or, or, you know, tell us more.

Speaker 1 | 11:50.681

So from an enterprise architecture perspective, I played a couple of the different flavors of an enterprise architect. One is on the setting the frameworks, guidance, principles, standards, etc. that an enterprise uses for various topics. So whether they’re going to go with a specific technology, coding patterns and standards. as well as frameworks that they can use or patterns that they can use for repeatable processes. Kind of the bread and butter is more on the strategy execution side. So leaving the conversations with business partners to help them prioritize their body of work based on, you know, here’s our strategy. Here’s what our… KPIs that we’re looking to achieve? And then how do we accomplish that? So it’s driving into conversations around, I use, I’m a big, big fan of business architecture. So I leverage the capability models to help drive those conversations, which really focuses on setting a standard language that easily articulates to business or that they can interpret. So you’re not talking about specific systems, but you’re getting more into concepts or capabilities. So we need to do this goal. It aligns with this outcome. And that essentially aligns with, just as an example, I want to do claims processing or I want to do claims management. or wellness rewards are a couple of good examples. So leveraging that approach allows us to have the conversation with IT on what does our application portfolio look like that enables those capabilities. And then once those goals… are essentially established and prioritized, we know what systems or platforms or APIs or technologies that we need to identify in order to either bridge a gap. We don’t have the technology to do it today. So we need to introduce new technologies. Two, we need to do an enhancement to an existing system or a platform. And that’s essentially what we capture at a high level within a roadmap scenario to identify where they currently are, what their future state is based on how they prioritized. what activities need to occur, and then the desired business outcomes.

Speaker 0 | 15:06.807

In my company, where we’ve been creating, maybe some of these things will sound familiar. I’m going to compare notes here to figure this out. But we built a diagram, an operating model diagram for our business. And then we put together a target state architecture for where we’d like to be. And we’ve created that we have a technology reference architecture document that goes with it to how do we align. So the operating model is a very highly generalized diagram about how business flows through our organization and how it’s supported by the various business functions that we have. So, you know, in our case, you know, we we move through like we have like three main boxes like sell, implement, support. Then what happens in each phase of those of the lifecycle of that as it moves through our, you know, through our business and who supports what going up from, say, like bottom to top. And then we have a, you know, a target state architecture document that that follows a similar like stacked methodology, but then shows the individual technologies or tools that we feel are most important to accomplish those goals. You know, so, for example, in our back office application stack. Under the enterprise resource planning, you know, it’s important that we have project accounting, for instance, you know, we’d have all these little boxes that indicate all the different things that we care about in that space. And then internally on the IT side, you know, I maintain a technology reference architecture document. It’s kind of like a heat map that shows which technologies I feel that we need to, you know, like, you know, say in some of our very simple like. do our email systems push notifications uh collaboration tools uh you know to we you know security monitoring tools logging tools and then it’s a heat diagram of how i feel we’re at relative to uh where we’d like to be you know so like if it’s uh if it’s green we’re good if it’s yellow or red you know we we’ve you know we’re working towards it you know so like like is that you And that’s probably, I think you would mention about a couple of different approaches to enterprise architecture. And that’s more of the, I think what I’m describing sounds like it fits more of the holistic, like business-wide systems architecture from an organizational strategic standpoint.

Speaker 1 | 17:32.993

That’s correct. So what we did when I was at Humana is we created an enterprise strategy. So a framework from an IT perspective. And one of the components of that, to touch on your point, was around… rationalizing our portfolio. They had three or four different claim systems. They had duplicative work or applications that did the same thing. So as part of that strategy from an enterprise perspective, how could we store up some of those, the application portfolio aspect? So A, we’re not only… saving the organization money, but we’re not having to duplicate requirements across those various systems. Big part of going back to that capability model, that’s essentially an anchor point, not only to prioritize work or a body of work, but also can be leveraged to provide other insights such as Well, we’ve got three systems that do the same thing. It provides insights into how can we rationalize and reduce those number of systems? Where do we have gaps? We need to do X, Y, and Z, and we currently have a bespoke system or application that does it, or nothing at all. So what approach do we take? And it’s those insights that… allow us to, as an enterprise architect, to influence our business partners and IT partners to help make decisions.

Speaker 0 | 19:29.378

So, two things I bring up here. One is that the folks on the podcast won’t be able to see this because it’s audio, but I’m currently reaching for a book, and I’m going to hold up on our chat. So, I have this book, Enterprise Architecture as Strategy, which is like a… I guess it’s… kind of considered like the seminal work, if you will, and for the foundational work of enterprise architecture, because it’s from the mid 2000s. And it was considered like the Bible of enterprise architecture as a corporate strategy book. for quite a long time. And I think it was, it fell, like it sort of like fell out of favor, in favor, particularly in favor of a lot of agile methodologies in the 2010s, you know, as, as that really took over how we look at everything, you know, not just software development, but like, all the things can be agile. And, and the enterprise architecture work was kind of fell a little bit by the wayside, as as a as a like a history like a stodgy historical thing you know like oh you know it’s like it’s like corporate planning essentially um but as a barrier that’s the way exactly but i think that it’s come full circle now where in the last couple of years there’s been a high recognition of the value of making sure that you have those plans in place and not just like basically agile hitting everything you got all right

Speaker 1 | 21:00.614

Humana, Optum, and Align all used agile methodologies. And it’s really astounding from an enterprise level. I don’t know the percentage, but I remember reading this. But majority of your business or product donors aren’t in alignment or in agreement on what that strategy is, on what needs to be done. But they have individual goals for their… organizational unit to deliver. They typically will produce insights that their stuff is the most important. But when you roll it up to an enterprise level and what the organization is supposed to do, you often see some contrast there.

Speaker 0 | 21:52.112

Yep. I’ve had those. those discussions you know the tough discussions with some of the teams to be like i understand you think this is super important but like if we look at it holistically with everyone else i’m not trying to diminish your value but in the larger scheme like your stuff can break and stay broken for a week and things have things move along you know like like you get to have those discussions like especially when it comes time to do things like where you plan the resources where do you you know they’re like oh we need we need you know this this crazy expensive backup solution for our for our product stack. And you’re like, do you really need that? Because, you know, the criticality of your system is actually a lot less than the criticality of this other system over here, you know, and, and.

Speaker 1 | 22:32.943

Right. Yep. Absolutely. And, and, you know, going through that prioritization session where we would interact directly with our IT, IT business and leadership and product donors and business partners. Now it. It was a conversation where we had them all within the call or conference or whatever the outcome was. But it was essentially getting them to essentially have that internal discussion while we were on the call to say, okay, yes, we can do this. Or yes, we can hold off on this. And where I see a benefit from an agile methodology is that. concept of iterative delivery. Because oftentimes your business and product owners want to boil the ocean. Whereas if we incrementally introduce value, it not only benefits that organization, but it also benefits the end user, whether that’s a customer or internal group.

Speaker 0 | 23:47.665

So I’m thinking about the second… point i would i wanted i want to make about enterprise architecture is for the podcast here who you are our core audience i would say is mid-size it leaders you know so 100 to you know thousand two thousand employees you know that’s mid to small small enterprise size businesses large enterprise businesses and it’s not all the time that you end up with enterprise architecture staff at that size. But the value of doing some of the work for enterprise architecture, and we’ve had a couple of enterprise architects on our podcast. I think there was a gentleman probably about two months ago who he runs actually an enterprise architects network, collaboration network for enterprise architects. And Phil Howard, one of the other co-hosts and founder of the podcast interviewed him. And The value of enterprise architecture in those small businesses, like even as a CIO, if you can take… some of the value and the lessons, because chances are you’re doing some of the work already that is enterprise architecture. So for instance, part of the enterprise architecture work, as I understand it, is to be a little bit of the, I don’t want to call it the gatekeeper, but you’re the keeper of the systems, how they’re organized. Do we need two systems that do the same thing when two teams show up and ask for it? That’s kind of a typical enterprise architecture function where somebody checks in and says, you know what, we have a… we have a tool that does X, so we don’t need the same tool from another company because, you know, the marketing team likes version A and the, you know, the customer engagement team likes version B. And so those types of things are tasks that a lot of these. mid-size CIOs, CTOs are actually conducting, but maybe don’t recognize the work as enterprise architecture and collectively pull it together into an enterprise architecture set of documents. Do you have a model of your system? Do you create a basic target state architecture document that lays out the things, your core systems and how you want to do it? I found it to be an incredibly valuable experience engaging with an enterprise architect consultant myself. from my organization but i was able to quickly map it to some of my prior roles where i was sitting there thinking about like oh when i was uh yeah currently a a mental health uh nonprofit ci cito but prior to that i was a county uh for municipal counties i see municipal counties and like i did all the enterprise architecture work in my head because that was like that it was my job to maintain like make sure the two departments didn’t go by the same thing to make sure that we we built towards a consistent setup, but it wasn’t ever documented.

Speaker 1 | 26:50.106

Yeah, absolutely correct. So the approaches that we took during my journey at Humana was a couple different things. One, we used an enterprise architecture repository. Essentially centralized all of the architecture documents. And architecture is Estrada. You’ve got the very high level architecture, which is focused more on strategy. And then as you begin to delve down, you get into the concepts, the logicals, physical and more into the design aspect. So centralizing those aspects and insights on current state as well as future state is a key component. And that’s really what’s going to drive that communication channel that you have. I work with an architecture community at Humana where we would corral all of the architects across the organization to essentially talk about new technologies. new concepts, B, talk through what are some of the challenges that are currently being faced, and the three, present some proposals on current and future state for specific needs. The other key aspect is, touching on my previous point, is concept. Now, taking taking a thought process, an ideation process, and drawing out a concept for that to essentially identify its viability. Will this work? And then that turns into a conversation with both your business and IT partners on a concept. What Humana was really good with was the values that they prescribed, which two of them that I’ve focused on. continue to focus on them for over 15 years is pioneer simplicity. Pioneer simplicity, because oftentimes complex requirements and major features get drawn up, but there’s easier ways to do them and or a majority of the complexity that’s often requested is rarely utilized. So that… That’s one. The other one is to rethink routine. So large organizations that are mature like Humana or Optum have always done this particular activity this specific way. But by introducing a level of curiosity and asking questions. challenging you know you can oftentimes get your your resources or your architecture team to kind of think outside the box and have different ways of doing the same thing that they’ve been doing for the last X years mm-hmm so you two big things that I’ve done as part of being an enterprise architect because it’s consult a trade-off role. You’re essentially there to help drive better outcomes.

Speaker 0 | 30:34.961

And I think that’s an important point, and I want to make sure to touch on that so our listeners understand that distinction in your history, that you’ve filled both roles. You’ve been an enterprise architecture leader as somebody who is oftentimes a strategic critic. individual that interfaces with the IT team and is that bridge between them. But there’s also you’ve also filled the role of the operations leader in the IT space, too, here. Absolutely. Go ahead. So tell us a little bit about like your professional background and just kind of like tell us a little bit how you got to now, if you will, you know, where you’re. You know, you’ve had a career of getting into the space. Like, how did you get into enterprise architecture? Where did you what were your starting points? How did you get into being an operations leadership in IT?

Speaker 1 | 31:24.326

Well, I started in the weeds. Initially, in the early part of my career, I was in the developer role. So I worked for a few different companies for probably eight to 10 years as a developer. And as I transitioned into Humana, my professional mentality began to mature. So at that point, I wanted to be challenged and wanted to get less in the weeds and more into what that next level was. I went through Tech Leader, where I led onshore and offshore teams. And then rose up through the ranks of an application architect, solution architect, and then into enterprise architecture. So it was more about getting from butts in seats, hands on keyboards into how can I help influence the organization to make decisions as well as. driving concepts, cost reductions, and those types of aspects that got me from being a developer into an enterprise architect. I’d say one of my strengths as an enterprise architect is, and it’s kind of my power of influence is what I call it, is acting as a Rosetta Stone. So having that ability. where I not only understand the business acumen, but the technical acumen, and be able to translate very complex concepts into easy-to-understand language where my business partners could understand it and non-technical resources could understand it, but then be able to dive more into the detail with my IT teams so that I could effectively communicate. This is what they’re looking to do, or this is what we need to do. And that’s what got me more into, well, what about leadership? Leadership, and you often hear the analogy of being a leader and being a boss. A boss tends to be very micromanagement, provides… limited space on the types of things that you should be doing or you can do, whereas a leader is focused on collaborating with your team members, setting them up for success, developing them. As a leader, your goal should be to set a legacy for those that report to you and by doing that through example. So provide that example. for them to build on, but have those conversations with your team members and the community that you are directly related to in order to influence them. on providing the right outcomes.

Speaker 0 | 35:03.760

So, I wanted to just, a question popped into my head about your experience. You mentioned you’re working with this blended team of onshore and offshore folks. And I think a really great thing to hear feedback on from one of our guests is, What were your biggest challenges in that type of environment? So not all of us end up working in that environment, but sometimes people move into it. So what surprised you about it? What was challenging about it? And maybe what strategies or tactics did you use to overcome and make it work?

Speaker 1 | 35:45.566

So a couple of things come to mind. One was obviously the language and cultural barriers. Oh. 2008, 2009, Humana began to outsource offshore resources for development work and various roles within the organization. I had rarely worked with people from offshore prior to that point. So learning the language, learning how they speak, learning their culture. was an initial challenge. But what it transitioned into is I got to a position where I’m like, I have a hundred free mentors on my floor. I’m going to learn their language. So I ended up transitioning that initial barrier into an opportunity to learn the language. And I began to learn the Hindi language where I could just have basic conversations with many of the resources on the floor. as well as on conference calls and that. That was a challenge. Two was we had a lot of great resources that we had contracted into the organization. It came to a point where we were transitioning into the offshore model, and a lot of those great resources essentially had to leave the organization. That was a challenge. That’s it. If I look at the dividends that it’s paid, it has saved the organization money from a development perspective. My best friend is from India. That’s been an awesome outcome from the opportunity. And I’ve seen a lot of positive outcome with the ability of. the teams to be nonstop, where if there’s an issue, they get the issue addressed and they do it quickly and they’ll bring on additional resources if needed, if there’s some type of stopgap or emergency that needs to be done.

Speaker 0 | 38:15.140

Nice. Awesome. Thanks for sharing. I think it’s great to just hear how people have navigated those waters. So I want to just turn us a little bit towards we’re kind of coming up on time here for for today’s podcast episode but i always want to make sure to turn to the two last things so the first of them is uh maybe a little more light-hearted conversation about about our backgrounds and how we got into technologies and and other things like that so i i think uh i one of the big questions we always ask guests is what was your first computer or your first computing experience and like how did it how did it change or influence you

Speaker 1 | 38:53.684

uh so initially i was into uh consoles so at the time it was the atari and television they were the computer resources oh yeah i had a 2600 when i was a kid so always uh always been into gaming still am today but

Speaker 0 | 39:10.938

uh first pitfall sorry pitfall pitfall oh yeah pitfall there you go that’s that that’s the stuff right there um first computer uh was

Speaker 1 | 39:23.516

My mom worked at a bookstore and they did consignment as well as sell books. In came the ground trembling Timex Sinclair. So it had a whopping 2K of memory, had the little chiclet keys on it. And I even had the 16K expansion pad. And it’s always been around. How can I solve a problem? How can I do this? And I ended up… writing you know basic you use basic so i used a basic language to write a um address book oh nice but even you’re programming from the time you were a kid yeah yeah so probably ninth or tenth grade and i went went through the ranks where i got into the commodore 64 texas instruments uh and then eventually bought my first pc uh probably early 90s. But it was just, it was always trying to overcome a problem or something I was trying to solve and it ended up becoming a hobby. I went to school, I majored in computer science and then that just really kicked, kickstarted my IT career.

Speaker 0 | 40:51.575

All right, nice. Awesome. Thank you for sharing. And last, we always want to ask what advice you would have for other folks, our listeners here who are moving into leadership or potentially moving into leadership. What advice do you have for them about being a leader and what’s important?

Speaker 1 | 41:09.909

And there’s a, so there’s a book. I don’t, I don’t have it in front of me, but there was a book I read. It was around radical candor. Not sure if you had an opportunity to, to read that book or not. But my advice to individuals wanting to step into an IT leadership role or to a leadership role is to focus on being very empathetic towards your direct reports. You know, having that having the the trust in your IT resources and empowering. your resources. Emana did a great job of this where they would empower direct reports to be able to make decisions as long as you had that thought leadership role and communicated insights to your leadership chain. It’s removing the unnecessary levels of approval. Empower your resources, but if you’ve got resources that have done something well or resources that have done something poorly, have that candid conversation with them. Oftentimes, you have resources that get into an annual performance review, and they’re surprised by hearing the feedback, as opposed to sharing that information during their journey, so there’s no surprises as part of the performance review. That’s kind of the… the leadership route that I’ve taken. And I would encourage anyone seeking IT to be more of a leader as opposed to a boss.

Speaker 0 | 43:03.722

Thank you. Thank you for that advice. And thank you for investing your time today with us on the podcast.

Speaker 1 | 43:11.345

Been a pleasure. Been a pleasure.

Speaker 0 | 43:14.126

So that’s a wrap on today’s episode of Dissecting Popular IT Nerds. I’m Doug Kameen, and we look forward to coming to you on our next episode. And that’s it. We’re all done. Hope it went well. Hope it felt well for you, I guess I should say. It went well, just so you know. As mentioned, they’ll make an edit where they’ll just slice out that chunk where we had the technical difficulty and find a good splice point together. And then package it up. So I’ll send this off today. Like I said, three to four weeks. Usually I get a heads up when it’s coming out. And I know that you’re connected with maybe Greg or Jamal or one of the folks from the podcast team as well. But I’d love to be able to connect with you on LinkedIn as well. And keep up with what you’re up to and the things you’re doing. And then I’ll usually give you a heads up too when I know your episode’s coming up.

Speaker 1 | 44:17.188

Okay. So that’s what I was going to ask is, will I be informed when it’s been published?

Speaker 0 | 44:23.069

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that’s a, that’s a goal. We, yeah. So we create like certain graphics. I don’t know if you’ve listened to any of the podcast episodes or looked at the stuff on LinkedIn for it, but you know, each time there’s an episode we create, like there’s some graphics to go with it. We take an audio snippet of like a, you know, an important or kind of like impactful quote. They put that snippet onto places like LinkedIn and sometimes other platforms. And then the podcast itself is published on the major podcasting platforms, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, stuff like that. Well,

Speaker 1 | 44:54.988

this is fun. And thank you for the opportunity.

Speaker 0 | 44:58.554

Yeah, you’re welcome. I hope you have a good luck on your job search. It sounds like you’re in the process there. So if there’s anything that comes up, you need a little boost or whatever, assistance, feel free to reach out to us if there’s something we can help with.

Speaker 1 | 45:15.081

Appreciate it.

Speaker 0 | 45:16.842

All right. Any questions for me?

Speaker 1 | 45:19.823

No other questions. Have a great Thursday, Eve.

Speaker 0 | 45:22.764

Yeah. Thanks. You too, Eric. Thank you. Bye-bye.