Speaker 0 | 00:00.080
This always happens. So yeah, curiosity, professional advancement. I just want your thoughts on the rest of our values just to see if they align with you and if there’s anything.
Speaker 1 | 00:12.765
And I can go over any of the other stuff again, if you’d like. So, you know, pursuit of excellence, right? There is a side of IT where responsiveness is everything, right? You need to be extremely, we’re in a service industry and our IT team needs to be extremely responsive. We need to be serving our customer, which is our internal customer. For some IT organizations, that might be your external customer. But regardless, part of excellence is always being extremely responsive, doing what needs to be done to get the job done and satisfy and meet the need. But the other part of IT, which I think brings out excellence even further, is the ability to plan. You need to be able to look at either your external customer, if you’re an IT firm, and say, where does that external customer need to be in the next year, next two years, next five years, next 10 years to meet their goals. And likewise, if you’re an internal IT department, it’s the exact same question. And so you really want to understand what does the executive team want? What does the executionary teams want, meaning your directors and employees? How do those align with kind of corporate goals? And how are the solutions that you’re going to provide? help align with those corporate goals and only if you truly plan it strategically will you reach the echelon of excellence so again it’s both the the service aspect of it and the alignment of the planning and strategic aspect of it to meet corporate objectives where you’ll truly provide excellence in the organization
Speaker 0 | 02:26.280
Knowledge sharing? I think that’s kind of like…
Speaker 1 | 02:29.542
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 0 | 02:31.484
I don’t even know if we need to go over that, but I think it should be a value.
Speaker 1 | 02:34.626
No, knowledge sharing is an absolutely key…
Speaker 0 | 02:40.431
As opposed to selfishly keeping the keys to the castle and locking down everything, and if you leave and quit, no one knows anything about what’s going on, maybe.
Speaker 1 | 02:48.317
So I don’t think IT people do this consciously, at least I hope not. I always assume the best in people. But I think subconsciously, IT people sometimes are not the best at sharing. And I don’t think that that is purposeful. I think that that is just feeling like they don’t have time or feeling they just don’t make it a priority.
Speaker 0 | 03:19.572
I think it’s human nature to take. I think it’s human nature that the first thing that 80% of mankind is thinking what’s in it for me when they get to a situation. I think that kind of human nature, right? So, and then for us, and what’s the biggest problem in communities, people going and just taking and taking and taking and not giving, right? So one of the main purposes and why we wanted to make this, because when I did a lot of market research, a lot of the complaints about communities or networking groups, et cetera, is that it’s not relevant or there’s either one dominating ego that talks the whole time or people come on, they’re on a lesser level and they’re just coming to take and they’re not giving back. So I think that the knowledge sharing or having this, you know, ability to first listen and understand and then respond, right. You know, the old Covey stuff. you know, or in, in this focusing on an abundance mentality that, you know, there’s enough, there’s more than enough in the world, right. Is like, I think important as a, to, to constantly remind people, right. Like give, give, give, give, give. Cause if you just help enough other people get what they want you in return and get what you want.
Speaker 1 | 04:37.173
Yeah. Phil, I think you hit a lot of great points on the head. I mean, first and foremost. There is no shortage of knowledge or work out there in the world, and you need to always operate with that abundance mentality. There’s plenty to go around, right? you know the second thing um you mentioned kind of human nature again uh i don’t think anybody does it intentionally but i think people need to flip the script in their mind and they need to make uh sharing of knowledge a priority that has to be a priority not only within it but within all of business in general because i’ll tell you the number one thing i see that stunts a IT team or a business’s growth is the lack of proper documentation and knowledge. That is the number one thing. I come into, whenever I’ve joined an organization, usually one of the key things that I see is, and there are many organizations that are better at this than others. And I want to be clear that I have every respect. for every company i’ve ever worked for i’ve worked for the most amazing companies i have the greatest people you know great processes um you know really really good companies but what i will say is they wouldn’t be in business if they didn’t have something exactly but um usually i come in at a time where a company’s in a transition from what i’ll call a small company to a medium or large-sized company and the A big thing that’s holding them back from taking them to the next level is often they’ve done a poor job of documenting their processes and procedures. And that includes within IT and outside of IT. And a lot of that is either a lack of time or effort or making it a priority, as well as, as you say, some people perhaps not consciously but subconsciously holding all of the keys of the kingdom. And… the first thought that comes up is, you know, the old joke, what if they get hit by a bus, right? Like, what happens when your director of IT, your CIO is out? What happens when your key programmer is not available? What happens when the guy whose sole job is this responsibility is, you know, had to take a leave of absence because of, you know, XYZ reason? So, you know, there always will be process owners, but those process owners, I think the number one responsibility they should have as a process owner is documenting their process and knowledge sharing their process. Like that should almost come above their ability to deliver on that process. Like, don’t get me wrong, they have to be a key, you know, they’ve got to be able to deliver results, but. One of the key metrics on how you should measure the way that they deliver results is how well they document it and how well they’re able to share the information. So I build a team first mentality where we share everything. We document everything procedurally. And, you know, one of our key things with our weekly IT meetings is to share. uh, what we’ve been working on, what we’ve learned from that and how we’re documenting it and making it better, you know, on top of the regular metrics.
Speaker 0 | 08:35.188
I also see ownership. I just wrote down ownership and that thought, because I figured why would someone not do that? Because they might not really take ownership or care about their company. They may be making a lot of complaints and, Oh, upper management doesn’t appreciate my job, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I’m just I’m just going to get the job done and move on. Right. So why would someone not talk to me? Because I just got to get the job done and move on and get my paycheck and clock in and clock out and see you later, bud. Right. So.
Speaker 1 | 09:05.135
Yeah. Ownership and personal responsibility. You know, there’s a there’s a good old classic saying that, you know, is goes something along the lines of. focus on the things you can change and not the things you can’t. You know, you can’t, you cannot change what XYZ person is doing, but you can influence it by how you respond. And that’s what you own, right? So you need to focus every day on how can I, you know, but continue to improve myself? How can I continue to improve the organization? How can I take ownership of the tasks that I’ve given, no matter what my role is within IT or within the organization? And if I truly take ownership, operate with a mentality of excellence, and operate on what can I deliver to improve this deliverable that I have, improve myself as part of that deliverable, and improve the company as part of that deliverable, that will always lead you to success.
Speaker 0 | 10:29.976
Let me ask you this because we could talk for hours. Is there anything that shouldn’t be on this list or there’s anything that doesn’t ring true with you or anything that doesn’t kind of just like, you know, like, yeah, man, that that’s definitely it. Is there anything that’s just kind of like,
Speaker 1 | 10:48.597
you know, being honest, this is one of the best lists I’ve seen for core values ever. Props to you for putting this together, regardless of what it feels. Yeah, this is one of the best. Yeah. I mean, regardless of whether this was, you know, IT specific or just a company value statement, this is wow. Impressive. I will just say that not to float your boat too much.
Speaker 0 | 11:20.193
And if you don’t mind, I would love to use that because, and the reason why, and I’m not going to be, look, I’m a dude that stayed back in first grade. Okay.
Speaker 1 | 11:33.878
Yeah.
Speaker 0 | 11:35.519
I fell in like many of these guys into the role that I’m in. Right. I was pre-med. I realized there’s no way I’m doing, I hate it. I was like, inorganic chemistry was enough for me. Biology was enough for me. Screw this. I’m going to go to creative writing. Okay. So this isn’t me. This is you. This is you. This is everybody else. This is the tribe. This is the hive mindset or hive mind, so to speak. This is 320 plus interviews with IT directors since 2015 that I have been. Just the nature of that has made me really kind of get under the skin and really kind of become, like, really understand. what you guys do. That’s why. So this isn’t me. This is you. I’m just the facilitator. That’s all I’m doing, right? I’m facilitating the conversations. I decided back in 2015 that you, meaning IT guy, and I don’t mean IT guy in like a negative way. I’m just saying like mid-market IT leader, guy that knows what an IP address is, right? I decided that you were the people I loved and you were the people I wanted to work with. I was sick and tired of small business owners that worked with MSPs and the MSPs were complaining the small business owners had no no care for they just were trying to save 50 bucks on their IT. I had no desire to you know big massive corporate IT where you’re just like a number and I myself had been a upwards of C-level director in other massive companies and I always loved the mid-market startup i loved the companies that i worked for that either went out of business went bankrupt sold to another company or grew to another company and i loved growing other companies and seeing them get sold and you know so i realized that i loved being in the trenches of of like growth and change and not in massive corporate like massive corporate companies where you’re just kind of like i don’t know order taker or a you know employee number of 1596 you know like whatever that was yeah so i think there’s value um how to put it this way and recognizing that every role in a company has
Speaker 1 | 14:09.569
a very specific purpose and value so you know when you talk about a business owner or ceo you know your your c-suite uh their number one role is to drive revenue right above anything else and uh and lower costs and that is their rules that is their role and that’s their focus and the purpose of a business so you may think that they’re being short-sighted at times and that could be true um sometimes but that is their role they’re that’s what their their purpose is they’re trying to do um In IT, our roles are, you know, data integrity, data security, data optimization, data flow. You know, when you think of like networking and infrastructure, you know, how fast does the data get from point A to point B? you know, automation, user training, process and procedure. I mean, often I think of us as process engineers because we’re always trying to improve process for people. So again, every hat in a company, whether it is, you know, the AP clerk that just got hired, you know, the warehouse person who drives a forklift. you know the person in the lab doing samples every role has value and i think you the one of the most important things you can do in it is recognize that um back to your core risk to values i purposely said wow impressive because i believe there’s value often using simple language um and i believe there’s like values are everything um i literally um there’s a few things I print out and post on my wall in my home office and my office at work. And one of those things is usually the company mission statement and company values. And then another one is like my kind of internal department values, because I want to read them every day. And that’s what I need to start my day. Not that I need to like read them word for word every day, but they need to be top of mind. It needs, there needs to be core values that are driving what I’m working on every day. And so I’ve always got to have a way to integrate those core values into what I’m trying to accomplish.
Speaker 0 | 16:47.264
So selfishly doing the opposite of what I said, which is I’m taking and being very selfish right now, but I need to hear what I just, I want just real quick. And I, to me, I have a lot of edits that are. that are happening to the vision and purpose, but maybe just skim it real quick, skim it real quick and tell me if this is the type of community that you would want to join.
Speaker 1 | 17:11.522
Absolutely. Um, I think you’re hitting on a lot of core things, which are, you know, you’re building a community, you want to nurture that community, you know, you want to build trust, feedback and growth, candid conversations. I love, love that phrasing there.
Speaker 0 | 17:29.408
um and again uh the core values that you have here are spot the where did i have candid conversations now i need to know uh yeah
Speaker 1 | 17:45.839
i it’s possible i may have ad-libbed that specific part no it’s there somewhere i believe yeah anyways uh you know again i kind of skipped it and then gave my reader’s digest version right um but questions with fender yep but no this is great uh you know you mentioned earlier in our conversation building a a brand um
Speaker 0 | 18:16.133
maybe it’s a personal mission statement i only said because that’s what some other people other it directors have said And you know, what’s interesting, ironically, is the other guy that said it was John Santee, also spelled J-O-N, John Santee. And he’s on LinkedIn. He’s done kind of an interesting job of building his personal brand and kind of following his goals and dreams of getting to an IT position that he’s want to work with, which I think is important because here’s the question that’s not answered. This is, and you tell me if this is a big deal or not, or if this is a big fear. of yours or an insecurity or a, this is, I’m just asking you to be vulnerable here.
Speaker 1 | 18:59.095
Sure.
Speaker 0 | 18:59.655
Do it directors worry about career stagnant stagnant station? Is that the right word? Stagnant stagnancy stagnant station. Do, do they worry about career stagnant station or losing, um, executive management buy-in and trust? Is it a concern?
Speaker 1 | 19:23.068
you know everyone is at a different point in their journey um i didn’t recognize i’ve never recognized myself as building a brand uh for myself or my department or my company i just was trying to build core values and use those as a way to improve our mental model and so uh it’s finding your voice or finding your voice I think that there are other departments to be vulnerable. I think there are not necessarily other departments, but I’ll say other trades that historically are a lot better at promoting themselves and building a brand. And I’m going to use a classic example, right? you know it used to be kind of an old joke that like if you worked for a bank you were always a vp right like the guy that literally i go to like get a loan from right that you know just has a little cubicle and two chairs i walked in has nobody reporting to them is like a is a vp at a bank and i don’t i i hope nobody takes this the wrong way right i’ve chosen to be vulnerable right i’m not trying to put down No,
Speaker 0 | 20:39.272
it’s like every business owner is a CEO also.
Speaker 1 | 20:43.034
And I can be a CEO of a business of one or two, right? Yeah. And so, you know, there’s certain industries or cultures that will build that brand or we’ll call it title, you know, very early on. But again, I would love people to walk. away with this mentality that title doesn’t make who you are. People will respect you based on how you choose to carry yourself. People will respect you based on how you deliver results to them. And title is something you earn by delivering those results and by carrying yourself a certain way, not something that should be just given to you or taken. Um,
Speaker 0 | 21:40.180
if, if there was a, if there was one single training or very valuable, um, piece of information that we put around all of this, this purpose values and, and everything that it is, everything that we’re talking about here, um, right. Which is the collective mindset of it and around the community and stuff. What would that one training be? Is it how to have an end game in IT? Is it how to never stop loving your job? Is it how to always love your career? What’s the training? Is it how to network properly? Is it how to grow your professional network of training? peers and have a, like a, a tribe of people that, you know, you really want to connect with what’s the training. What’s the,
Speaker 1 | 22:47.336
yeah. Networking is very important. Um, and again, when you approach networking, uh, just like I was mentioning about title, uh, when you approach networking, um, I think you need to never fear anyone as a threat. Like I can always learn from somebody, they can always learn from me. There’s an abundance of knowledge out there that should be shared. So networking is extremely important because it gives you different perspectives on things. It’s great to be able to, I would encourage IT people to join, you know, what we’d call like user groups or communities that people are trying to solve their own problems and hear what their problems are. and hear what solutions they’re trying to implement. There’s a lot of wisdom in not always being the guy that has to speak in the room, but sitting back and listening a little bit. So networking, joining communities, that’s a huge thing that will help you grow and not stagnant, you know, to kind of get back to that, you know, word you were using earlier. The other,
Speaker 0 | 24:02.210
maybe that’s not the biggest fear or concern that you have like when it comes to your job and your career and everything you’re doing what’s your single biggest frustration problem or concern like you know what i mean like what is um so i i do want to hit on the the stagnant just a little bit more for a second so we
Speaker 1 | 24:23.382
all fear that we’re not going to grow in our job like that’s a natural fear that people have um i just you If I could give the IT community one word of advice or one small phrase, I would say is act as if. Meaning act as if you are the leader, deliver results. That’s what leaders are. That’s what leaders do. Leaders deliver results. Leaders help others. Leaders grow others. Leaders put the team first and contribute to the team. So if you can act. as if you had the leader title, meaning how would you be an effective leader, you’ll become the leader. So act as if, meaning you can be the junior network admin who just got hired. And if you act as if, meaning have integrity, share knowledge, be a team player, contribute to the team, contribute to the success of the company, deliver results, you will never be stagnant. You will always grow.
Speaker 0 | 25:36.781
You are in a room of your peers.
Speaker 1 | 25:40.220
Yes, you are in a room of your peers always, regardless of title. Take title out of it. You are in a room of your peers every time you enter any room.
Speaker 0 | 25:48.143
I don’t know, but I’m literally saying right now, you are in a room of your peers all at your level. High level sophistication leadership. They’re all on the same level. They all can code. They’ve all been leadership. They’ve all been through the pains of being a leader and not being a servant leader. and hiring bad people and they’ve made all those mistakes and they’ve done this and now they’re they’re at the top now they’re they’re at the top they’re they’re cio cto their it director in the mid whatever it is and the question is what do you fear no the question is what do you all want and would love what would you love to see a presentation on i want i’m dying to go see this new hit movie What is it? I want to hear from this guy. Is it the guy that wrote this Phoenix project? Is it the number one security guru? Is it AI hype master? What is the one training that you guys are just like, I am not missing this for anything. I’m canceling my calendar. I am, I am, what is it?
Speaker 1 | 27:08.704
Yeah, I think IT people are extremely curious. I think we naturally want to learn from those that have been very successful. If there is, you know, tech leaders, you know, that are going to give a speech about kind of their life journey, you know, I’m all in, right? I want to hear how did they… get to where they were how did they build their empire um what is i can learn what is it i can learn from how they failed yeah i think is you know to be honest the most important aspect so if somebody were to give a very open and honest speech that said here’s every way i failed to get to where i’m at that would be the speech i couldn’t miss because I think if there’s one thing I’ve learned in life, you cannot be afraid of failure. You fail forward and meaning you learn from failure and you move forward and failure is like the most valuable teacher. When you try something and it doesn’t work, you almost learn more from that than not. And I’m not saying to fail on purpose, but what I’m saying is if I could If I can learn from tech leaders how they have gone where they got and what the struggle was, what were the failures that they really learned from, that would probably be the most insightful conversations.
Speaker 0 | 28:53.385
So one of the first guys I’m asking to give a talk, I just put his link in.
Speaker 1 | 28:57.086
That asks a lot of, you know, a lot of vulnerability, of course.
Speaker 0 | 29:00.727
Yeah. So I asked John Gallet. gillespie who’s been on the show before i just put his um i just put his link in the group okay so here’s a guy that wanted to be a professional surfer right he went to hawaii lived there to become a professional server didn’t happen was an it director or whatever right now he’s cto at megacorp megacorp they got two golfers on like you know in the masters or on the pro tour right they’ve got like you know it’s a he’s got a big big role you And when I asked him, like, you know, how’d you get there or whatever? He’s like, it’s all about your network and, you know, who, you know, and taking care of people and blah, blah, blah. And I just happened to be somewhere. And someone was like, you know, I was having a conversation and we were just, you know, I was just telling him this, that, and I was like, you know, we need someone over here and, you know, I think you’d be a good fit and blah, blah, blah. So I was going to have him, um, give a presentation on. And really this is, I know it sounds selfish, but in reality, it’s all about giving back to you guys. So I don’t feel, I don’t, I really don’t feel guilty asking you this. Um, the, I asked him, I said. I’d love you to just give it, you know, 10 to 15 minutes on, you know, growing your personal network and how this has led to a more fulfilling career and growth of your, you know, I said personal brand there. But, you know, finding your voice, you know, challenges that you’ve overcome, things to avoid, best practices and how to not go stagnant in your career and how to continue to gain the respect of, you know, your peers and hierarchy. And with all the insecurities that we hold, overcoming imposter syndrome, which would be your act as if thing, right? In a space evolving so fast and, you know. assuming we we deal with that to some degree or do you just say screw it and go to the beach because he’s a big surfer and so am i so that’s why um so anyways uh that’s um i’m just curious would that be an interesting topic absolutely
Speaker 1 | 30:53.881
okay um funny you mentioned surfing i noticed that in your uh your linkedin profile phil so sounds like you guys are kindred spirits
Speaker 0 | 31:02.864
Yeah, it’s just nothing like, you know, some days you’re just like so stressed out and then you’re just sitting out in this massive body of water. And it sounds so, it’s so cliche and every surfer is cliche. They’re totally like, I’m just one with the earth now. It’s like you are, you’re sitting out in this massive body of water and you have nothing to do but contemplate in between trying to find the perfect wave and surf the perfect wave, which will never happen. But then you get one and it was like really good. And you’re like, wow, and then again, it doesn’t happen.
Speaker 1 | 31:31.500
I’m having recollections of Point Break, an old movie when you missed it.
Speaker 0 | 31:37.182
It used to be a dorm.
Speaker 1 | 31:38.763
Yeah, exactly. You know, though, there’s a lot of wisdom in that. I think we can all fall into this trap of not taking care of our personal health or feeling like if we code for, you know, or work on this project for 10, 12. 15 20 hours no get me wrong i guilty guilty you know i i put in as much time as anybody but there’s a lot of wisdom in walking away and going surfing or working out or like i personally don’t surf i would love to to learn and do it um sometime but
Speaker 2 | 32:17.999
um go with phil if you want to learn the not go with phil i went with him many times and i want to just die at that he took me to a six feet waves as someone who’s tried it three times
Speaker 1 | 32:29.336
and about like ask you know a blue shark to help me out to take me out and it was snowing oh my god yeah but but i’ve got a well first of all i’ve got i’ve got personal i’ve got you know a family a wife and children that keep me busy i’ve got uh some personal hobbies myself uh i i do some some music stuff on the side um but also just i I’ve always had a thing with working out and that’s how I start my day. That’s how I get my morning energy. That’s how I keep my mind mentally sound is you’ve got to have some personal balance where you’re taking care of your health a little bit, try to eat healthy, try to do some type of physical exercise, even if it’s just… going outside and walking around the block and getting some sun and some fresh air. Because when you take a little bit of time to focus on yourself and your physical well-being, you will, it will make you so much sharper. Get a good night’s sleep.
Speaker 0 | 33:48.662
It’s my worst.
Speaker 1 | 33:50.224
I am extremely guilty of not getting enough sleep. I am. i am that guy that basically you know it sleeps five hours you know most nights um wow it’s absolutely terrible for you i really worry about the long-term health effects um but i just i naturally wake up early i can’t help it i’m naturally concerned about the business i want to make sure the business is on track and performing at you know all levels not just my own department but Is, you know, are we shipping stuff out the door on time? Or, you know, is our revenue line growing? I am very bad about that personally and need to get better at it. But taking the time to be, you know, well rested, do some physical activities, take a break. You’re going to come back refreshed. It’s the right thing to do. So there’s a lot of wisdom in your surfing, you know.
Speaker 0 | 34:51.059
The, the, um. My sleep score is a 50. It’s been horrible lately, but I’m working out, you know, it’s like, you shouldn’t work out today. I’m like, I gotta work out. Uh, yeah. So yeah. And it just gets worse with, with age. Um, I know you’ve spent an hour with me and I’m very appreciative. I, is there anything I can help you with? I know we had some things on the list. What is there that’s, is there anything that’s on your, that we had on our list here that we need to talk about? And I would love to just have, you know, I would love to just schedule a time to have you on the podcast and, and we can talk about, you know, any of that other stuff is pretty easy. If there’s anything that’s like a, you know, a. What did we say here? Are you looking at disaster recovery solutions or customer service? And what’s your customer service piece? Is that contact center or what?
Speaker 1 | 35:46.702
Always. Yes, absolutely. One thing that I think about with IT is we always need to evolve continuous improvement, right? In that pursuit of excellence, right? So do we have disaster recovery? Absolutely. First of all, I’m a firm believer that, you know, one of our key responsibilities in IT is, you know, data, data integrity, data security, data backup. Right. I do. Look, I think there are solutions out there that are amazing and probably never fail, but I don’t, I don’t have one backup or disaster recovery solution. I have several because inevitably it’ll be that. moment that I need it that you know solution a wasn’t you know working properly so I’ll refer to solution b and that’s just experience that tells me that right regardless of what everybody says so and then I’m also a believer that like your backup and disaster recovery plans have to continually involve evolve so Absolutely. There’s a humbleness in saying the solution I have today is not perfect. And I know that because we’ve been implementing new technologies. We’ve been implementing new solutions outside of backup and disaster recovery. And we always will. And we need to continually adapt. our disaster recovery solutions to take care of those other technologies that we’re implementing right we’ve got this new AI cloud solution you know we’re implementing how are we backing that up do we trust that vendor on their own to do it absolutely we’ll have them back it up but I should have my own backup solution that’s also backing up as a secondary you know methodology and not just 100 trust them on their own and it’s not that i don’t trust them again systems fail you you need to count on the fact that systems will fail and you need to have a backup for your backup that’s just a fact of life so uh i will lean on uh the community i will lean on you phil um and abdul to uh help us i will lean on other um organizations that i you know partner with to also kind of get to quote me on different solutions and ultimately we’ll let’s use the best solution for our business you know who do you um yeah what are some of your best partnerships that you do lean on just out of curiosity um obviously there’s some big brands there um you know whether that’s you know uh microsoft or dell or or cdw um I’ll use one of those brands as an example. I have a just terrific relationship with a rep at CEW just because I’ve been working with him forever. And he’s so responsive. And he obviously doesn’t have all the answers himself. I would never expect that of anybody. But he gets me in touch with people that really are solution experts.
Speaker 0 | 39:19.254
He’s a matchmaker. He’s a really good matchmaker.
Speaker 1 | 39:21.335
He’s a matchmaker. Yeah. And he’s just… fantastic at that. And having said that,
Speaker 0 | 39:28.477
let’s steal him and I’ll hire him.
Speaker 1 | 39:30.798
Yeah, no, he’d be a great person for me to put you in touch with Phil to build your network. And at the same time, you know, there’s value in saying, I’m not going to vendor lock myself in. And I’ve told him that myself, I’m going to allow other vendors to quote me. And sometimes his solution is not the solution I go with. And that’s okay. But I’m still always going to go back to them and be like, hey, I want you to be one of the guys that’s quoting me on this because often I do go with your solution. You know, a third of the time. another relationship that works better and that’s nothing against them maybe i come back to them later um you’ve always got to have some poor relationships i broke up for a second so i missed everything after after you said i i always quote my other guy and then you’re like i come back to them was that dell or somebody or who was it who do you come back to uh again my i think my relationship with cw at this point is probably the strongest out of any of my vendors um i um
Speaker 0 | 40:46.626
I have no, I’m here to help when you can. A little bit of background on me. Again, I was in corporate voice and data and I started a Cisco startup years ago. So I was in the corporate world up until 2015. The last company I was at, I knew was getting ready to sell to a company called Windstream, which I knew I did not want to go work for Windstream. So I kind of like, started putting my hand up in the air at that point in a company called IDT, which is the largest router of like telecom traffic. I don’t know if you’re familiar with them, like in the world, like IDC, they’re a huge, massive company out in New Jersey. They tried to take me over there and I was like, eh, I don’t want to just come like rebuild your, do your little startup, billion dollar startup inside a company that they wanted to start a VoIP company called Net2Phone. And I have, I happen to have a lot of like a lot of telecom experience, like a lot. And I was like, you know, and they’re like, well, we really want you like what I don’t understand. We’re sad that you’re turning us down. I was like, I just don’t want to come, you know, come build up your entire network and be your VP of, you know, sales or channel or whatever. And just be that, you know, overweight 50 year old guy that’s working, you know, from 530 in the morning till seven o’clock at night and, you know, do it all over again and build up your whole company. And then, you know, I get replaced by some other guy, you know, like later on. And they’re like, oh, we appreciate that. so why like what do you want what you know what so what are you gonna do and i was like i just always wanted to start my own you know consulting business i don’t really know they’re like what’s stopping you i was like i don’t know i’ve got eight kids but you gotta keep the lights on it’s like two hundred thousand dollars and um they’re like okay we’ll give you the money i was like no i don’t need a loan i don’t i don’t want an interest like no no we’ll fund you and like i realized at that moment that i had done some angel funding without even realizing it like by mistake And, uh, so I went over with my buddies at a company called Converge Network Services Group in North Carolina, um, started my own consulting thing there with them and partnered up with other people because you’re stronger in numbers. And then, uh, that was like six years. And then we sold, um, to a company called AppDirect. And I just stayed on as a partner. I didn’t, um, so I don’t know if you’re familiar with AppDirect, we’re like a CSP on steroids. So like our direct competitor is CDW. literally we do literally the same thing. Um, the only difference I would say is like, yeah, you know, your sales rep, he’ll, he’s not going to be there forever. Eventually he’s going to leave. And, um, the only difference with us is not, then I said, so I did that for years and kept doing that consulting thing. And then I said, you know, yeah, I’m tired of supporting MSPs and doing all that. And I was like, how let’s just, let’s just support it directors from now on. And if we can help people out, great. You know, if not no big deal, because, um, we’ve already sold and i’m just gonna have fun and support the people that i really love so uh for me there’s really no um desperation or anything and i really take a vendor agnostic kind of the matchmaker approach and i’ve got my my wheelhouse that i’m really strong in uh networking data telecom sd win kind of like maybe maybe uh man showed you the wheel of services last And then I’ve got my network that, yeah, like if I’m not the expert, I just point you in the right direction. Like, no, security piece. Oh, no, Microsoft licensing. No, we need to talk with our ex-batch Microsoft guy. I guess he’ll, for some reason, he loves SKUs, Microsoft SKUs and navigating the hieroglyphics of Azure billing, you know, like whatever it is. So if there’s anything that you ever want us to help with, happy to help you out. And if you love the. the direction we point you in, you know, great. If not, you know, your CDW guy will fill in the blank. You know, you’ve always got to be, what do we say, like a portfolio, you know, you’ve got to be, you know, well-balanced and diversified as an IT director.
Speaker 1 | 44:47.515
Your responsibility is not to your vendors. Your responsibility is the company that you work for. And so you need to build strong relationships with different vendors and get different quotes. and um be able to uh buy solutions in a way that are um loyal to your company first right yeah and uh that’s just the way it is um why just i’ll use an example phil i’ve i’ve uh i’ve only recently come across your podcast um as a result of our connection and i’ve only uh i don’t like to listen to stuff during the day when i’m working because i feel like it’s too distracting I focus on my work. I divide my time. But I do sometimes listen to it, you know, kind of has my bedtime story, I’ll call it. That’s when I read or I listen to a podcast or whatever, right? And I’m only through some of the first couple of episodes and I plan to kind of be a continued listener. I think the service you’re providing to the community is great. But you mentioned earlier when we talked that you don’t want to make it too vendor specific. I would agree. You don’t want to overdo that. I think there is value in every five or 10 episodes having a vendor on there to kind of do their pitch. Because that is a good way for IT people who are regularly listening to the episode to, number one, get a break in format. So it’s not all the same stuff. And not saying that it is like that at all, but number two, just to hear about, you know, a solution that they may not have heard otherwise. And so I’ll use the example. One of your early podcasts was Inky.
Speaker 0 | 46:45.208
Yeah, man. Love that guy. Yeah, he worked. He developed Sonic. Yeah. Sonic. No, no, not Sonic. What was the PlayStation?
Speaker 1 | 46:54.335
The PlayStation. The first uh bandicoot bandicoot crash pandicoot yes crash bandicoot yes they sold for like five billion yes okay so uh i would not have heard that that was where i heard of that solution and to be honest i have not been particularly happy with our spam uh phishing solution because it’s kind of felt like it’s trapped in a certain model and the model that the way that they approached it, I thought was incredibly smart. And I’m like, that’s a, that’s a great solution. And so the thought is like, okay, you know, Phil led me that solution. I should give Phil credit where credit’s due, right? Like give the kickback to where I heard the solution from if I were to pursue that solution.
Speaker 0 | 47:50.531
So do you want to hear what’s on the horizon? Do you want to hear what’s on the horizon?
Speaker 1 | 47:53.272
Sure. Sure.
Speaker 0 | 47:54.553
So you tell me, so here’s how we’re thinking of doing this. So first of all, you’re Web development is a massive pain point, paper cut, pouring lemon juice on, I don’t even know how to describe my woes and pains with web development, right? So we’ve got the same stupid WordPress website that gets hacked, that gets, you know, because it’s got a thousand, you know, plugins that you got to keep updated all the time. Just due to the nature of a thousand plugins, you know, they’re not going to. fast is your captcha the latest version and as actors already got past your captcha can i and can i as a leader of the podcast even spend time doing all that you know like there you go there’s the conundrum right so
Speaker 1 | 48:42.254
we’re bit anyways we i’ve got so even if you have a huge web development marketing department you know it’s still a challenge you
Speaker 0 | 48:49.192
So off the record, I went to CISO series, my, my guy that I know the CISO series, he’s got another podcast himself and he, you know, uh, David Sparks is really, really good at podcasting and he does the CISO series. So I’m like, dude, I’m dying. Why didn’t I think of asking you, who’s your web guy? He was like, Oh, David over here. He’s like super awesome. I’m using them for years. I’m like, yes, finally. So like after, you know, reinventing the wheel and dealing with, you know, a whole team of developers in India to, you know, to build it on, you know, what what was the platform you were using and uploaded to you know amazon it was just like finally we’re redoing the website i’m really liking the the the redesign and everything and what it’s going to be is yeah we’ve got the typical podcast which it’s got it can’t be the same thing over and over and over again we’re going to have the podcast like what we do with the it leaders but then we’re going to have yeah like a vendor spotlight like a 15 20 minute vendor spot yeah you don’t want like one guy who’s like
Speaker 1 | 49:47.408
a CISO and the next podcast is a CISO and they’re both like security focused. And then, you know, you’ve got to have like a variety.
Speaker 0 | 49:57.756
So then we’re going to launch the community. And so how do we make the community, what’s the goal of the community? It’s going to be different than everyone else. It’s got to be time. It’s got to be cognizant of time. It’s got to be cognizant of not having ego driven people take over the whole thing. It’s got to be, it’s got to drive the giving, right? Like we talked about earlier, like everyone or everyone actively participating in giving. And one of the things we’re going to do is have, is have peer driven presentations where everyone has to present. Basically want a schedule of everyone that’s in the community somehow, if, you know, if they want at whatever point, deliver a presentation. It’s 10 to 15 minutes. These are breakout groups that happen, I don’t know, bi-weekly or whatever. And we can break it up depending on how, how big the community grows into zones and, you know, different groups and you’ve signed up for it. We can make the presentation live or not live. And maybe they do the presentation 10, 15 minutes, and then you get feedback from your peers. Feedback from your peers on how to make your presentation better. things to add in, have a question and answer session, and have a roundtable discussion around this topic, right? And then record it and then have an ongoing stream of comments from that thing. Then they can go back, redo the presentation. Then we can do live Thursdays podcast. So we can have a live session where someone’s presenting on a specific topic that’s already been curated by the group. and we could even turn up a payroll. So that person that created that content gets paid. So one of the things that I’ve found with, with a lot of these guys, there’s no end game. There’s no way that they’re making, I mean, a lot of people have little side gigs here and here, but do they really have kind of like, that’s kind of what I meant by like personal brand. Like how do you grow kind of this identity where you’re creating your own IP, right? Your own intellectual property that grows with you. and then helps you grow your career so that’s one aspect of the community other than the ability to ask anonymous questions have the the discussion groups round tables and then you know maybe a bi-yearly or a yearly you know expo of some sort um but an ability oh and then an ability to do guys i’ve got this crazy problem i want to apply for the hot seat this week what are the topics that are coming up guys send in the send in the questions you have we have a hot seat dude i’m dealing with this crazy problem i don’t know how to deal with it i’m gonna sit in the hot seat and you guys will ask me questions and beat me up and i’ll be totally open to your feedback and everything like that that so the the podcast combined with the community combined with another aspect of the community which is an ability to write and author articles and you’ll access to our production team to help edit and provide powerpoints and really kind of help make curate and cut back on the time and professional development of you as an it leader yeah
Speaker 1 | 53:11.325
i mean uh presentation skills is something that uh anyone in it should try to focus on learning a bit of right and so i think that sounds fantastic phil um i know for me like early in my career a big thing was you know uh i would get feedback from you know my bosses like c cfos or whatever that uh hey uh learn your learn to know your audience a little better you know it would be like if i was presenting to the you know finance team don’t get too technical you know stuff like that right so I think that there’s a lot that people can learn just by doing. And if they were to give a presentation and get feedback, that is an amazing thing that your team could absolutely help them with.
Speaker 0 | 54:09.845
Sweet. Well, it’s not my team. It’s going to be the collective.
Speaker 1 | 54:13.727
The peers. Yeah.
Speaker 0 | 54:15.408
Right. And I want this to be really life altering growth. Like I want people to come in and when I came in at year one, I was this, when I came year three, look where I’m at now, I improved in this, this, and this. And I really want it to be the community of all communities. And not only that, a community that can, we can all collectively see us changing the face of IT as digital transformation leaders. I mean, is that a good name you think, or should we have a contest on how we name this thing?
Speaker 1 | 54:47.799
Digital transformation leaders is a good name. And I mean, people learn by doing, right? If you, I mean, don’t get me wrong, you watch, you know, you watch the classes, you read the books, you, but there’s no better learning than by doing, right? If I was focusing on security and network administration, I need a network to play with and learn. If I was focused on programming, I need to build something. In order for presentation skills to get better, you need to give presentations. In order to get better at public speaking, you need to practice. I mean, personally, this would be the first podcast I’ve ever been on. I have no experience doing it. I’m not shy about doing it. I just want to do it and make it feel organic as possible.
Speaker 0 | 55:35.050
I’ve got news for you. We did the podcast. I’m just going to edit this. that’s fine no no i know it would be great it actually would be great i did a ton of information here i just i’m overload to absorb it i’ve been i write in maybe like three page now of notes yeah here’s the truth he’s the engineer too the truth is that uh he’s actually an engineer for i don’t know if he told you but uh abdurrahman is actually a what do you say what kind of engineer i always screw this senior rnd engineer research and development engineer for abb so like all the guys that you know he does crazy stuff with electricity in his basement that i would never do like replace like like the main electrical what do we call that it’s a panel it’s a panel here the low center he’s like like no way would i like detach the main 220 or 330 mcs like the big one hell no i wouldn’t even mess with like i wouldn’t even mess with like a breaker he’s like you know like screwing around I’m like,
Speaker 1 | 56:38.905
uh, no. Yeah, you’re a braver man than I am.
Speaker 2 | 56:43.086
I was scared at the beginning because I had never done something wiring, but then I was like, screw it, man. I know the standards, go do it.
Speaker 1 | 56:50.770
That type of thing might make Phil’s beard stand out in a different direction.
Speaker 2 | 56:56.132
He was surprised. He was surprised when you said it.
Speaker 0 | 56:57.912
He was like,
Speaker 2 | 56:58.593
did you do that by yourself? I was like,
Speaker 1 | 57:00.353
yeah.
Speaker 0 | 57:01.974
I was like, crazy.
Speaker 1 | 57:02.915
Nuts.
Speaker 0 | 57:04.335
Like, I wouldn’t even. Yeah, but a good point, learn by doing, because one of the comments that I got that a lot of people dislike about some of the forums that have been a part of is they’re like, look, I can go, the majority of the stuff I can YouTube and find on Reddit and stuff like that. I don’t need to just, I don’t need to be involved with a place that just provides me a bunch of resources, right? I want to be involved in discussions and peer-led presentations and having higher level sophisticated discussions. I don’t need to go to learn how to, you know. do xyz like i can you know right a lot of people say i’m i’m in it because i’m a better googler right than somebody else sure yeah i mean i i had a revolution the other day where it was like um you know uh i grew up kind of before the internet right then yeah uh we were we
Speaker 1 | 57:57.500
were the nerd family that you know my mom was a computer programmer my dad was a network or not a network engineer, but an engineer. So we were like the first family in the block to have the computer and, you know, our computer would dial up and, you know, it was, it wasn’t the internet. It was like all hyper terminal type of stuff. Right. But anyways, a point I was getting at was, it was like the moment I realized I could check a library book out, you know, by dialing with the hyper terminal, I could reserve books and get one step ahead of getting the information before the next person. And eventually, you know, when a book came with a CD and I could look up information on a CD and then, you know, Google and Yahoo and all of them, I mean, obviously Yahoo first and there were a lot of search engines before them came along and I could find information on a search engine faster. And then now with AI, I mean, oh my God, the rate at which I can find information with AI and I’m trying to get my entire team to use this tool, these tools as quick as possible because it’s just a competitive advantage.
Speaker 0 | 59:01.480
If I show you what it did this morning, what my development team did over here with AI, it would actually shock you because I don’t even know how Greg did this, but he basically took everything, like this whole conversation that we just had, and he took all of the data from all of our podcasts and he basically built all these AI bots that are like the pain point analyzers. and the it leadership this and that he has all these things crunching all this stuff and he’s really really good with all the what do you call the like the code that you use to ask it or something you said at the beginning and i’m just like blanking right now uh the props he’s amazing at prompting right so what ai popped out was a fake podcast that was analyzing digital transformation leaders, the community with a woman interviewing another guy, like, Hey, there’s this new community of digital transformation leaders. And it, and it basically professes, it professes to do this, this, and this, and they actually say they’re going to be able to do this. What do you think about this? And the other guy’s like, well, let’s take a look at it. And you know, well, you know, isolation and it is really actually a thing at the top, you know, because when you get to there, you know, you have to make all the decisions and, you know, you can’t really like, I was like,
Speaker 2 | 60:22.168
i was like oh i was like i was really shocked and i heard it’s not really real this is this is i heard it last time from another guy it’s something called no taker lm by google basically they
Speaker 1 | 60:37.534
put all the information and actually what you said it’s same exact i was shocked as well they just kind of summarize that makes a report yeah fireflies was incredibly detailed um it’s not perfect i’m sure it’ll get there sooner than later
Speaker 0 | 60:50.820
But this was a completely make-believe scenario with two people. Like, I mean, complete make-believe made up out of nowhere. I couldn’t even tell that it was, I mean, he makes me speak in French and all kinds of things. And I don’t, you know, I just, um, so anyways, I really appreciate your time. If there’s anything that you do want to run by that you do want to run by me that, um, that you’re having CDW quote, or I don’t know. phone systems, internet, come back up or whatever it is. I’m happy to whittle it down to the top three and put you in contact with anyone that might be beneficial to you. What I want to do is I’m going to send out an email with some bullet points from all of my notes that I’ve taken. And we’re going to get on and talk about… Thank you. something. I would love to talk about just like in general, maybe take a little, do a little more soul searching around the maybe kind of like AI and how you have used AI or how you, you know, foresee using it or how you’re planning on using it, whatever, right? Whether it be Firefly or Claude, love Claude. Did you know Amazon bought them? It was Amazon that bought them? It was Amazon, right?
Speaker 1 | 62:13.495
I did not know that.
Speaker 0 | 62:14.436
They didn’t buy them. They injected something like $50 billion.
Speaker 1 | 62:19.978
Yeah. I mean, it’s, you know, Microsoft’s tie-in to chat GPT is, you know, super strong too, right? And a lot of what Copilot uses is that. So all of the big tech providers are going to, you know, inject money and try to stay on top, right? And buy the…
Speaker 0 | 62:38.268
latest technology they all go back and forth i find claude’s better one day and then chat gpt the next day and then um i wonder if you can uh i wonder if you can even hear this and and then you have to think to yourself is that look of the draw or is it that i prompted it better in that moment right but um just just out of care can you hear this no you can’t hear that okay okay um i always wonder how do i you feed this into how do i feed the computer into maybe it’s six oh well it’s not working oh well um because if you heard it it’s it’s pretty wild the i really want this to be heard yeah i mean uh
Speaker 1 | 63:37.476
how to put this way i’ve invested in another business and um some of the things that we’ve done with coding there uh was incredibly with ai there you know basically creating uh commercials using ai it is very convincing i mean incredibly good incredibly convincing yeah um all right It’s amazing technology.
Speaker 0 | 64:10.658
I truly value your insight. I value you taking this much time, investing this much time with us. Would you like to be involved in any of the community discussions that we’re having with some of your fellow leaders in the space on curating the community? Okay, super. I’m going to send you this.
Speaker 2 | 64:33.031
Do you want to… a like uh have a round table about the customer experience with john i think he has some um is what are you doing right now what are you quoting right now or what are you guys working on right now or what projects do you have on your roadmap yeah
Speaker 1 | 64:49.536
i mean big focus on ai big focus on how can we use ai um obviously i mentioned uh the email security conundrum Um, you know, not particularly happy with the current solution, looking at others again, I loved that we found Ehi through you guys. Um, that seems like a, a winning.
Speaker 0 | 65:14.225
Did you meet with them yet? Do you meet with them yet?
Speaker 1 | 65:17.666
Yes.
Speaker 0 | 65:19.147
Okay. Do you, did you mention me or by any chance, or did you guys purchase or anything like that?
Speaker 1 | 65:25.646
I have not purchased, uh, did fail to mention you, uh, should you want to just absolutely get, get credit for that email chain,
Speaker 0 | 65:33.848
just hit response. And just like, Hey, just let you know, I know the, I know the owner anyways, it doesn’t matter if, if you just put me on that chain and just say, Hey, I forgot to mention, I forgot to mention that because, because of Phil and, um, you know, listening to the podcast that you guys did and, and, and yeah, just tag me, they’ll just tag my agent. They’ll tag my agency to it. That would be awesome.
Speaker 1 | 65:54.222
I can absolutely do that, Phil.
Speaker 0 | 65:56.802
Glad it paid off that you went all the way back. That was like episode, I don’t know, 30? That was a ways back.
Speaker 1 | 66:03.944
I think it’s possibly earlier than that. But I haven’t gone that far forward. I just kind of wanted to listen to at least the beginning and kind of see what’s this podcast about. And with anything, you improve over time, right?
Speaker 0 | 66:20.350
but it’s way different now i’d be embarrassed actually i would be embarrassed to go back and listen to some of those but it’s good feedback because yeah i stopped doing vendor i stopped bringing vendors in i need to do that so it’s great uh you know at first uh
Speaker 1 | 66:37.356
i kind of you know was like okay you know like the like the gimmick of like you know the most bearded man and all of radio whatever and now i see why um but having said that um you know stuff like that even though it’s like gimmicky it sticks and it’s like what you have to do right it’s how you kind of build your personal brand or your you know things like at first i was like oh okay like this you know this guy’s stick is this you know but it’s like it it helped build your personal brand and now i’m like i love it right so
Speaker 0 | 67:12.124
you know for your feedback right so um it’s like 10 years ago when i did that i’m trying to remember what it was
Speaker 1 | 67:19.430
Yeah, but anyways, what was I going to say? I’m just, for me, I’m at a point in my career where I love what I do. I love the company I work for, but I’m interested in giving back to the community. So I’m glad I was able to connect with you guys. As far as solutioning, really, a lot of it is, you know, now is the time I have to plan budgets for next year. And if I’m not happy with particular solutions. Whether that’s disaster recovery or security, as I mentioned, or what are we doing with AI? I’ve got to explore those solutions now. And it’s often I can’t buy the solution today because I’m on a current contract with my current solution. But next August, we need to decide whether we’re going to renew or have something else. So I might line something up literally this September.
Speaker 0 | 68:18.606
for next august right that’s just the reality of how the cycle works you know so it’s always planning ahead of course which is you shouldn’t do yeah right because there’s a there’s only a window of time for so many things because everyone has that where they shouldn’t yeah the metaphorical spreadsheet of providers and circuits and yes numbers and and right yeah um the
Speaker 1 | 68:47.750
Yeah, the other thing I was looking at was, you know, I’m trying to look at things that can boost revenue and drive for the company. And it’s what are we doing in customer service? You know, I would say we’ve been happy with our telecommunications, but they’re pretty rudimentary, pretty basic. Can we do stuff that’s better? What do you use? I mean, right now we’re just using Teams as our phone system, right?
Speaker 0 | 69:15.289
Great.
Speaker 1 | 69:17.026
But it’s, can we do things that are better at, you know, not only routing the call, but maybe, you know, I don’t want to go too far in the realm. I want to still want to make sure they get a live person because our company is passionate about that.
Speaker 0 | 69:33.275
Let me ask you a few questions. How many users are answering the phone?
Speaker 1 | 69:41.319
Quite a lot, actually. We have over… 10 customer service people. Yeah. So quite a lot.
Speaker 0 | 69:49.945
Yep. How many users have a team’s direct routing? Are you direct routing or did you, or did you go direct to Microsoft and voice enabled through Microsoft?
Speaker 1 | 70:01.595
We’re voice enabled through Microsoft. Yeah. That’s what we’re doing.
Speaker 0 | 70:05.378
E3, E5. What’s your licensing breakdown?
Speaker 1 | 70:08.821
No, actually we’re not actually surprisingly we’re not on the E class. We just have the add on and there’s.
Speaker 0 | 70:14.766
all sorts of so you have um we have out we should re-evaluate our it’s a bit of a microsoft nerd i’m a little bit of a microsoft you have less than 300 users on with microsoft licensing Yes. Okay. So you’re on like a 365 business something or whatever.
Speaker 1 | 70:33.438
Exactly. Okay. Yeah. They keep changing the naming of it, but yes.
Speaker 0 | 70:37.199
Of course they do. And then you buy that through CDW or do you buy that through another CSP?
Speaker 1 | 70:45.142
Yes, we do.
Speaker 0 | 70:46.283
Okay, great. And then you voice enable. So that means then that you probably paid the $8 or $12 phone system SKU license to depending on business 365 or not. So you may have like the, the, the, the, um,
Speaker 1 | 71:02.829
correct.
Speaker 0 | 71:03.749
Okay. So it might be 12 bucks. Cause you might be, um, um, packaging in a conference calling and teams video calling. Right. So it’s either 12.
Speaker 1 | 71:12.372
Right. So my, so my questions again, and here’s where everybody has their strengths and their weaknesses. So, you know,
Speaker 0 | 71:22.135
um, just follow me and then And then you have another $12 that you’re paying for the voice enablement of Teams. And that’s just to have an outside dial tone to make calls in the United States. Do you make international calls?
Speaker 1 | 71:36.949
Yes.
Speaker 0 | 71:37.810
So then you have to add another $12 to international capability. So now you’re at, you could be at $30 plus per user.
Speaker 1 | 71:49.319
Correct. Yes.
Speaker 0 | 71:51.072
That’s highway robbery.
Speaker 1 | 71:52.692
Expensive. Yeah, highway robbery.
Speaker 0 | 71:55.913
How many users?
Speaker 1 | 71:59.515
Yes.
Speaker 0 | 72:00.115
Let’s just say it’s 200. Let’s just say, is it more than 200 or less than 200?
Speaker 1 | 72:05.977
You know, and obviously this is off the record, less than 200.
Speaker 0 | 72:10.299
Hold on. Let me stop recording.
