Speaker 0 | 00:09.546

All right, welcome everyone back to Dissecting Popular IT Nerds. Today we have Mike Auerkirch on the show. He was correcting me earlier, but he said this is the harder way to pronounce his name, Auerkirch. And I don’t know if I did that right. I probably still butchered it. You butchered it. Mike is from Web… safe staff and he, for a living, he walks in and teaches the, I guess the politically correct way to say it would be the less tech savvy people to not do really stupid things, which we wouldn’t say, basically not click on things that do things that are stupid that get the company robbed. And I don’t know, you know, click on phishing emails and various other things that you do, but we are, we are talking about how there is a lack of. security training for even maybe, I guess we would call it residential. And I was thinking of my father who is a retired doctor. He’s 85. We won’t call him elderly yet, but he definitely has me coming over to the house to change passwords and do various different IT related tasks. And that’s where I came up with the idea for this show because every now and then he gets a call from Kevin from Microsoft. Kevin has a very thick accent, nothing against anyone with a thick accent, but Kevin just happens to have a thick accent calling from Microsoft and asking my father for $600 to fix his computer, which has loads of pornography on it. And at that point, I asked my father, Dad, do you have pornography on your computer? And are you watching pornography? To which he says, no, he’s an 85 year old retired urologist of all things. And I said, so Dad, don’t please don’t listen to Kevin from Microsoft. Microsoft’s not going to call you. And that, so that is kind of where this, this prompted the idea for the show is what can we do? What can we, tips can we put together to help some of our family members or other people that may be calling us IT guys or IT people around the clock to help them fix various things? And we want to keep people safe out there. Is that, would that be a fair assessment of what we’re doing today?

Speaker 1 | 02:20.297

Yeah. Yeah. Good intro.

Speaker 0 | 02:21.877

Okay, great. I’m glad I hit on all that. So, but even before we get into that, we need. You’ve got some pretty good stories from backpacking to being some sort of private investigator to, I guess, everything short of a mercenary. Maybe you were a mercenary, but why don’t we just start off. Give me a little bit of background on how you got into this whole mess to begin with.

Speaker 1 | 02:45.959

It goes way back to when I used to read these books. I think it was Mac Bolin, this ex-army guy that infiltrated the mafia. I really enjoyed it, mainly for the fact that I was, you know, it was hard for me to do, you know, look out for scams. And then, like you mentioned, the backpacking, I did a ton of backpacking. And just you get targeted. Now I had a gun pulled on me on a train, and I had a professional pickpocket and guns all over the place. It was good because I just found that I was really aware. I was really smart.

Speaker 0 | 03:29.137

How did someone pull a gun on you?

Speaker 1 | 03:31.518

Yeah, that was a bit scary This dude wanted my My shoes and my watch We were in a train and it wasn’t very busy And I called the guys Bluff, like I said Put it away, that’s not funny And he’s looking at this guy And he’s looking at me And I’m just going, Jesus, don’t shoot me

Speaker 0 | 03:51.669

So he put the gun away?

Speaker 1 | 03:52.550

He did put the gun away But that was probably one of the more stressful things I’ve come across. I don’t want to do that again. But, yeah, look, I just found, you know, I had like a gang try and set me and my partner up for a mugging in Thailand and I just, I spotted it. I’m just going, that doesn’t look right. Someone come from behind. You know, I just, I managed to get out of things. I managed to identify things. I just, you know, I’ve been in IT for quite a while and I’ve just…

Speaker 0 | 04:23.408

naturally gravitated towards the people side of things more and more over the years and and enjoying just being there talking to people and seeing all the light bulb moments you need to slide up to the microphone just a little bit more because this is so intriguing i need to hear every second of this and

Speaker 1 | 04:41.717

where well first of all where are you at right now you’re in australia yeah yeah living in australia so i’m from new zealand but i’ve lived in england and now in australia um and she knows what happens after that. But yeah, so I like, so,

Speaker 0 | 04:58.039

so spotting muggings. Now you think, what happened once you spotted it? So what happened? So what happened?

Speaker 1 | 05:04.388

Look, so the mugging was interesting. So, yeah, that was in Thailand. We went to the world’s largest restaurant where they serve you on rollerblades. We had to cross the road. A taxi dropped us off on the wrong side. We have to cross the road and someone comes out of an alleyway before us. There’s no one around. And I’m like, okay, and he’s walking in front. And then I’m looking behind thinking there’s someone going to come out behind. Sure enough, someone came out behind us, so they had one in front, one behind. It looked pretty dodgy. I look over the road and there’s quite a few people over there looking pretty dodgy as well. So they were definitely, the way they were acting was highly suspicious. The guy at the front kept looking back at us. The guy at the back was right behind us. So I just said to the missus, just hang on a sec. So we just leaned up against a fence and waited. I always have a knife with my backpack. You know, you’ve got to cut your bread and that sort of stuff, and it just so happens that it’s a lockable switchblade that’s really quite large because, you know, sometimes the loaves of bread get quite big, right? So that comes out, click into place, just standing there with a big knife in my hand. And then, yeah, we basically just waited, and other people finally came, so we walked over the bridge with them.

Speaker 0 | 06:22.329

So you had a quite visible knife.

Speaker 1 | 06:25.210

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 0 | 06:26.410

I figured, you know, maybe this guy isn’t worth messing with. You know, we’ll mess with somebody else.

Speaker 1 | 06:31.231

Yeah, that’s right. And it also happens that I’m quite, you know, being Dutch genetics, quite tall. I won’t say I’m small. So, yeah, generally don’t have too many problems with that. But, yeah, it was interesting. So, yeah, scams abound. I mean, you got bat picking. That’s what you get, right? You just get tons of that stuff.

Speaker 0 | 06:53.058

Why do they want to get someone with a backpack? What do you have? I mean, really, I guess you got a watch and some shoes at some point, but sometimes I’m not.

Speaker 1 | 07:00.384

I mean, you know, that was probably going to be like a, you know, a mugging, like hold us up and just take your wallet and whatever. You know, I had a gang in Costa Rica, professional gang. It was two behind. And I saw them probably two minutes before they made their move. Saw them in the shop windows. I started like dodging and weaving. And just. casually and watching them and sure enough they were following me so I was waiting for the blocker in the front sure enough someone comes from the front and blocks me and then they try and move in and they’d probably just slash the bag but yeah so they did much so they did they did pick pocket here no no they didn’t because I saw it about to happen I said came on like right I’m out of here and uh pulled him out I pushed I pushed the blocker into a window nice nice I pointed out the other guys and said, you, you, you, you’re busted. And they’re like, oh, no.

Speaker 0 | 07:55.499

What are you talking about? Why’d you shove me? Yeah,

Speaker 1 | 07:57.200

okay. They knew that we’re busted.

Speaker 0 | 08:02.143

So how did this lead to security? How does this lead to cybersecurity and protecting people?

Speaker 1 | 08:07.766

Oh, I was in IT. I was doing tech stuff. I was doing desktop support. And then eventually I got into systems admin service stuff. And then got into management. consulting. One of the things I wanted to do was training. So I took a gig as training, Microsoft stuff. It was just part-time just to get that skill. And then it just kind of naturally happened. I had as virtual CIO, I was operating as like an IT management resource on demand. And my clients were getting hacked. It wasn’t bad back then, but it was like, you know, malware basically it wasn’t like ransomware or anything like that um but yeah sure enough they were paying plenty of money to their it support provider because they constantly had these viruses and things removed potentially unwanted programs and that sort of stuff and i was looking at it going how’s he getting this stuff because he’s just clicking on things right yeah you just you’re going to crazy websites and just clicking on that and you know you’re getting emails and you’re having a look at that no that looks great so i said look i’ll put together course and I put something together and it was rough as guts it was pretty I’ve looked back at it and it was kind of embarrassing how bad it was but at the end of the day what it did was um it just drove a bit of suspicion um and people at the end of the course it was only like 40 minutes and they went oh that’s actually really good didn’t know any of that stuff you know basic stuff like you know how do you read a url you know hovering on it you know social engineering just basic things but you know the change was massive. Suddenly they were like, well, hang on, we’re not getting hacked anymore. Just from a crappy course. So then I thought, well, I might as well put together a good one. So I’ve been working on it for like four or five years and I really enjoy it.

Speaker 0 | 09:59.943

People were getting hacked and then they stopped getting hacked. Let’s kind of just, what do you think are the common, like what’s the most common? Like when you go on, what’s the most common? Like what were they not getting hacked? How did, like what did you tell them that stopped them from getting hacked?

Speaker 1 | 10:16.132

Look, mainly probably email stuff, getting tricked with links and things like that, attachments, you know, going to dodgy webpages. It’s hard to say. because there’s so many ways that we can be scammed, right? You know, even things like an unsubscribe link in an email. Or what if a scammer just sends you out a dodgy email and you go, oh, damn it, I’ve been added to another mailing list. I’m just going to click unsubscribe, bang, go to website, heck. There’s so many ways of getting us. Really what I just focus on is just examples and just teaching people really simple rules that they can apply and that kind of keeps them safe for pretty much. um nearly everything you know if you can give people simple rules and they can just and every time i see a new scammer i’m just looking at the course does it cater for that do my rules cater for that yep that’s called not gets added into the course and try for um it’s kind of got to the point now where it’s just the refinement is is very low um it seems to cater for stuff well so back to my father he’s 85 he um

Speaker 0 | 11:27.711

forgets passwords. He gets phone calls. He gets things in the mail and then calls the number on the card in the mail. That was the other one the other day, which is, that was a good one. I had to stop him. I heard him on the phone. I’m like, dad, who are you talking to? Give me the phone. You know what I mean? And so what, you know, without picking on, you know, without picking on the elderly or saying that they’re, you know, not tech savvy or anything like that, but In general, it might be, you know, a little bit of dementia kicks in and that’s just what I’m dealing with right now. And there’s a lot of people that are taking care of taking care of their parents when they get older or whatever. And they still got tons of devices. My dad still has an iPad. He’s got an Apple. He’s got an Apple TV. He’s got his TV. He’s got his computer. And, you know, plus the regular phone plus another phone. There’s plenty of things there. And so let’s just hit on maybe let’s just start going down the list or what can we do to help? people or help other people that, you know, what can we do?

Speaker 1 | 12:32.775

Yeah. Cool. Hey, good example. The data 85, you know, I’ve got parents and I sort of getting, getting up there with age. And that’s probably not too bad because I scare the crap out of them. So we’re kind of just hanging off, hanging off the delete key with everything.

Speaker 0 | 12:47.806

I still try to scare the crap out of them, but he forgets that I scared the crap out of them. That’s the problem.

Speaker 1 | 12:52.689

Oh, geez. Okay. All right. So look, yeah what can we do i think i think it starts with um why should we care um and trying to get that message across about why why they personally should care that’s typically the starting point um with cyber security when it’s just a bit of buy-in because what people don’t realize is they’re all a target um and if you can be easily tricked you know like you’re gullible trusting and helpful and all that sort of stuff you know that’s kind of the scammers love that so they’ll be after you right and you know elderly young generation will often fit into that category quite well. So they kind of need to know that, you know, they actually are a target and they do have value. You know, things like if someone gets…

Speaker 0 | 13:38.223

Let me ask you a quick question. The worst nightmare is like a bank account getting liquidated.

Speaker 1 | 13:42.926

It’s just about…

Speaker 0 | 13:43.791

say that. Retirement account or a retirement or a stock investment account, like a stock investment account getting hacked and traded and liquidated. Is that possible? Can that happen? Yeah,

Speaker 1 | 13:54.520

hell yeah. I mean, look, do they use internet banking? Does your dad do it? My parents do. Yeah. What if they click on something and they get a key logger on their computer that’s logging every click they make on their keyboard and then they go and do their internet banking? Thanks. You know, they’ve just given away the login to their bank.

Speaker 0 | 14:12.823

Don’t the banks usually have some sort of security measures? They wouldn’t let someone liquidate his account without, wouldn’t they put a hold on it? Aren’t there usually some stops or something in place, you would think, or can’t still do it?

Speaker 1 | 14:23.006

There are. It doesn’t always work. There’s always ways of doing things. Sometimes they manage to work it, sometimes they don’t. At the end of the day, the care factor should be there, because things keep going. Banks aren’t going to cover this stuff forever. It’s going to get too expensive for them, I think, and they’ll just go on and bugger it. It’s your responsibility. It’s your money, right? You shouldn’t have clicked on that. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I mean, you know, and the other thing, like you’re saying, you know, the Microsoft scams, that sort of stuff, you know, ringing up and then, well, you’ve got a virus in a computer and what do they do? They lock them out of it and then say, well, pay us some money to unlock it. There’s so many ways they can scam them out of their money. It’s really quite. disturbing the stories I hear. It’s not nice. So they’ve just got to give a damn. I’ve just got to become suspicious and just like I always say, stop thinking, act, just stop and think and if you don’t know how to think about it, don’t act. The go-to point should be you, for your parents.

Speaker 0 | 15:27.712

Yeah, go watch, I don’t know. whatever that, why can’t I think of that stock trading movie? What’s his name out of New Jersey or whatever? I’ll think of it in a second. Okay. So, okay. So we should care because people are losing money and give me, why should we care other than they’re liquidating bank accounts and taking advantage of you and all of that?

Speaker 1 | 15:51.664

I’d say quite simply that that’s your golden news. And you’re supposed to be chilling out and relaxing. And the last thing you want is to just be thinking, Oh God, I’ve just lost a heap of money.

Speaker 0 | 16:01.623

That’d be horrible.

Speaker 1 | 16:02.743

That’d be absolutely horrible, right? Okay. To be honest with you, that was like romance scams and stuff.

Speaker 0 | 16:09.667

Yeah, yeah. Oh, talk to me. What do you mean romance scams? What’s a romance scam?

Speaker 1 | 16:13.508

Oh, you know, where someone tries to say online that they love you. And you go, hey, I’m going to move over and we can be together. And you know, you get, they prey on the lonely people. It’s incredibly successful.

Speaker 0 | 16:26.354

Really?

Speaker 1 | 16:27.455

Oh, yeah, yeah. And what they’ll do is they’ll often just, you know, try and build that trust and send fake photos and basically, hey, we need to be together and I’ll move over to your country and then I’ll start asking for money. Okay, I just need to pay for some bills to sort this out before I can move over. Can you help me out with that? And look, you hear stories of people, they just get scammed out of hundreds of thousands of dollars. And there’s no real person, there’s no real love there. it’s just a scammer on the other end you know it’s a very um successful scam that makes it even more lonely that makes you even more depressed yeah and i know that you know even when some people go and ask for help about this stuff because like there’s a body over here that actually advises with that stuff you know they’ll talk to people who and they’ll say no it’s a romance scammer they’ll explain what’s going on even then they won’t believe it they go no he loves me oh she loves me you know no look you’ve got to stop this you’re being tripped no you to it. It’s very, very convincing stuff that I wouldn’t believe.

Speaker 0 | 17:31.648

It’s like catfishing. It’s like catfishing teenagers. Yeah. Like teenage girls getting cats. Yeah,

Speaker 1 | 17:38.170

that’s good stuff. Playing with emotions, you know, it’s very powerful stuff. That’s pretty sad. People just need to care because the downside of this stuff was just a mess. It destroys lives.

Speaker 0 | 17:53.754

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the catfishing for teenagers, terrible. Teenage girls sending pictures, thinking they’re talking with some love. Again, the romance. So romance, number one, romance scam. My father, he calls me to change passwords all of the time. There’s even two-factor, the two-factor authentication kills it. You know, whatever reason, things are getting locked out. It’s terribly time consuming and a pain and makes it very, very hard for anyone to get anything done. So what’s your suggestion with the passwords? I’m assuming it’s not Excel spreadsheet on the desktop that says passwords.

Speaker 1 | 18:39.224

It’s an interesting one with this because I remember years ago, I posted up on LinkedIn, you know, you go to the bookshop and they’ve got these books and it says password. manage a book. Literally. Passwords in there. Yeah, literally. That’s a writing password. So it stores your login username. It stores your password. And then where do you log in? You know, Google Doc. So those three things you need to capture. And, you know, I posted a picture of this on LinkedIn like three, four years ago. I went, man, what a joke. Why would you do this? Now, obviously, that was earlier in my sub-security witness career. And, you know, some people actually said, yeah, it’s actually a good idea for some people. You know, I’ve kind of. definitely turn around on that because it is a good idea. What are we going to expect? We’re going to expect some people who have no idea about tech to fire up a password manager.

Speaker 0 | 19:30.965

No way.

Speaker 1 | 19:35.246

And manage that and have two-factor to get into that. I mean, two-factor even for a lot of people is really hard because it involves another device a lot of the time. I would say if you’re not cool with that stuff, get a book. Put it in a book. Label it as something weird like flower species or whatever. Just do write your passwords. And just having that book means you can use different passwords everywhere. That’s so critical. If you’re hacked in one thing, you don’t get hacked in other things. And that’s usually an easy fix.

Speaker 0 | 20:13.269

Flower species. I like that. Flower species.

Speaker 1 | 20:16.974

It’s just a disaster. Get a dried flower and stick it in the front page of the book.

Speaker 0 | 20:20.876

It’s really thrilling.

Speaker 1 | 20:24.098

You know, IT criminals do not break into your house looking for a password manager book. They don’t do that. The big risk there really is a fire or a flood. That would be bad. You’d lose all your passwords, but you haven’t been hacked. So you can just sit about restoring them slowly. But yeah, I’d say just get a book and different passwords everywhere. can construct good passwords um and you know longer is better but they don’t have to be like horrific you know i kind of think if you want to make a semi-decent password just think about four things and just put it together with capitals so you know like porch dog banana grass right there’s there’s a password you’re done you know just think of random stuff put it together um that’s a pretty good password and throw in some special characters if you wanted but you know that that That’s a simple way of doing it. So yeah, password books, hey, go for it. If it makes it easy and you can keep different passwords everywhere, that’s the solution for me.

Speaker 0 | 21:26.337

Nice. So we got a password book. Yep. It doesn’t say passwords.

Speaker 1 | 21:32.601

No, it doesn’t. No one’s going to find it.

Speaker 0 | 21:35.683

Yeah, okay. I have a picture of my dad’s desktop. I’m going to white out. the passwords, but he’s got like sticky notes of the passwords stuck to the screen and a passwords book sitting right underneath it that says passwords on it. It’s quite hilarious. So back to the scams. I walk into the house. He’s talking with a guy trying to switch his energy bill. And just some guy, his job is to just switch energy people. And I can hear my dad, now let me make sure I get this straight. Am I switching providers? I can hear him, dad, who are you talking to? Stop. I’ve already got all your bills set up on automatic payment and I’ve done this and I’ve spent months of time doing this, you know. It’s, and then let me talk to this guy. He’s like, I can’t tell if this guy’s telling me that. Anyways, it wasn’t a scam, but it was definitely problematic, you know. But I’m sure, but he does get scams from, you know, Kevin calling from Microsoft that says there’s problems on his computer and he needs to log in remotely and please download, log me in or whatever he asks him to, to log in. And then there’s a little 1-800 number to call IT tech support in the bottom right hand corner of his computer forever. Right. So what, how do we, how can we coach people to avoid this stuff?

Speaker 1 | 22:50.170

Yeah, I would say a good starting point is just thinking about common scam indicators. So when scams present themselves, there’s usually one of a number of factors that just sort of scream out. staring in the face and the main one is fear. So I would always say to people, look, if someone tries to scare you, it’s an email or a phone call, it’s probably a scam, right? Because companies don’t work like that.

Speaker 0 | 23:17.091

You open money and back taxes, call the IRS now, it’s a famous US one. Okay.

Speaker 1 | 23:22.074

I mean, really debt collectors work like this, but even then you kind of hope they’re nice. But yeah, fear tactics, it’s just like, it’s just about always a scam, hey? Reward tactics are very similar. You know, the free lunch. That’s nearly always a scam. Who gives away free stuff? It could be legit, and you need to look into it.

Speaker 0 | 23:42.953

I need to stop giving away nerd glasses and pocket protectors then. I’m giving away free stuff. Start charging for that.

Speaker 1 | 23:48.857

I’m still wearing the ones you gave me. I love them. Curiosity scams. These are quite subtle because you just get something and you go, what’s that? It’s really that. It’s not. it’s not invoking fear it’s not invoking this free lunch thing you just look at it going i might have a look at that you know i have to open it i have to open it it kind of relates to me like maybe it was that thing you know so um urgency stuff do it now you know kind of tied into the fear a lot of the time and then taking the fun out of life you’ve just sucked the fun out of life you know Authority scams as well, pretending to be someone else and telling you to do things. That can be big business stuff. Look, the fear factor is massive. I’d say those first three, fear, reward, curiosity. When you see that sort of stuff, just get ready on the delete key or hang up the phone. It’s time to stop and think.

Speaker 0 | 24:52.426

I’ve gotten sucked in with the reward one before. You’ve been chosen to win the new iPhone 12 or whatever it is. God,

Speaker 1 | 24:58.267

everyone probably got sucked in with that like 10 years ago.

Speaker 0 | 25:02.068

It was like, and then they’ve got all these testimonials. I thought it was a scam at first. I really did. But I just got my phone in the mail today.

Speaker 1 | 25:12.091

Yeah, really? Yeah, like people are getting more savvy with that stuff. But hey, I still get. I still, oh, I didn’t say that. No, my friends used to share on Facebook. You know, I can share to be in to win a cruise or I can share to be in to win a, you know, Land Rover Discovery. A number of people bloody, you know, I like and share. And hey, you know, you have a look at this. It looks great. So I always post up. There’s this photo you can get off the internet and it’s got a picture of like a teacher and a kid. And the teacher’s looking down on the kid on the desk. He goes, now, son, do you know what you did? And the kid goes, yeah, I shared something without fact checking. which led to the dumbing down of humanity.

Speaker 0 | 25:58.447

Please send me that. That’s going to be the cover for this.

Speaker 1 | 26:01.610

It’s great. So I typically would just post that up. But yeah, I teach that stuff as well. And I’m just like, have a look at this thing. Like, is it really going to be like, you know, Disney world fun? Is that their page? Wouldn’t it be called like Disney world? Yeah. to Ottoman and it’s a different page.

Speaker 0 | 26:22.756

Just look at the URL. Look at the URL.

Speaker 1 | 26:25.757

So that sort of stuff, yeah, it’s common. You’ll see those scam indicators just about everywhere. I’ll just do it. Interestingly, when I was putting this course together for the first time, I had the tax department ring me up. The tax department, I’m doing the quotes thing. I’m like, dude, literally putting a course together about scammers. yeah you just rang the wrong guy they hang up oh man that was quite good you should have kept them on like please keep talking we got to record this is great for my this is great for my piece please can you okay oh i do that i do actually do that i get i’ve got one that i’m following up today it’s another i’ve been nominated for another award so it looks very very prestigious and i’m sure i won’t have to pay any money So I’ll be chasing that little tune up in my house for the next one.

Speaker 0 | 27:24.867

Oh, man, people, it does. They get caught on this. This has been going on for ages. My dad went all the way down to Florida, went on a free boat once to go see this. What they were trying to do is sell him a timeshare for a house. And they did get the free boat, though. They did give the free boat, but it was in like, you know, maybe a 36 inch by 12 inch. A meter stick by, I’m sure you guys use. metric system down there you know a meter long box by you know whatever with a inflatable boat in it something like that you know i was like you went on a 12-foot boat with an outboard engine and there actually was some kind of crazy engine maybe like a little battery thing or so anyways look he’s still got a boat with an outboard engine but um we were talking before about websites and yeah you know knowing where to go to websites how do you know i mean I mean, what do you mean only go to websites you know and trust? That was something we were talking about. And how do you, I mean, there’s a… Yeah,

Speaker 1 | 28:22.102

this is a tricky one. This is a really tricky part to actually…

Speaker 0 | 28:25.364

Because I need people to go to my website and they don’t know my website. Yeah, I know. Look,

Speaker 1 | 28:31.506

the fact of the matter is the more the dodgier website you go to, the more chance you’ve got to be hacked, right? If you’re going to, if you say, well, I get my news from this website, right? Cool. That’s pretty safe, right? So keep going to that. But when you get a link and people need to know, you have to hover on that link before you click it because what it pops up when you hover, that’s where it’s going. What the link says means nothing, right? So they need to hover on it and wait, and this little thing pops up, and maybe on a browser it pops it up somewhere else, bottom or whatever. That’s what they have to look at. And it’s hard to teach this stuff, but really if you look at it and go, well, it doesn’t make sense, then don’t click on it. You can do research. And this probably covers off the next thing as well. Do research, you know, open up a Google search window and in the search, not up the top of your address bar, put in that address and put the word scam on the end. And I’ll do that for most things. If I think something’s a scam, I’ll just do a search and put the word scam on the end. Invariably, that’s going to take you to what other people have found out. You know, and they’ll say, hey, don’t do this. It’s a total scam. You’ll find it in a forum or someone’s written. written a blog post or something. But yeah, websites, and this is why, you know, when I teach stuff, I’ll spend 20 minutes on like URLs and, you know, 20 minutes on websites. And there’s a lot to get through. But really just in its simplest form, just don’t click on it. If it doesn’t make sense, you know, recognize it. And if you’re not sure, you know, maybe do a bit of research if you’re comfortable or go and ask for help and say, hey, is this legit? because that’s a massive way that we get tricked just going to dodgy websites and you know this thing hey your account’s locked and you put in your details or whatever

Speaker 0 | 30:22.392

So I’ve never done this before. We’re going to take a break right now to advertise for Phil Howard and dissecting popular it nerds. And what I want you to do is go to Google and type in Phil Howard, dissecting popular it nerds, scam and see what comes up. Um, that way website.

Speaker 1 | 30:43.397

Scam. No, you don’t do it. Uh,

Speaker 0 | 30:49.319

okay. Um, All right. So what else we got? So we’ve got, we’ve got websites, hovering over URLs. We’ve got a password books that we put flower species on the front of, uh, avoid fear, reward, curiosity, urgency, authority, anyone trying to give us money or make our lives better, um, or make our lives worse. We need plain, you know, middle of the road. Here’s you can win a $5 Starbucks gift card. That might be more legit, but you’re gonna have to take this stupid survey. Um, yeah. And even that’s probably a scam to just take your information and put you on a really bad BOGO offer, Macy’s thing. I don’t know what they have over there in Australia. They don’t have Macy’s over there, right? It’s not like a worldwide company.

Speaker 1 | 31:32.941

I don’t know what Macy’s is.

Speaker 0 | 31:34.021

It’s like a massive department store that’s probably out of business now due to Amazon. Oh,

Speaker 1 | 31:38.643

yeah. We got department stores going out of business too.

Speaker 0 | 31:41.504

Yeah. What do we call them? What’s the name of a department store over there? The big one.

Speaker 1 | 31:44.585

I hear they’ve got Myers and David Jones.

Speaker 0 | 31:48.387

David Jones. Okay.

Speaker 1 | 31:49.988

Yeah, I think at Myers is probably the big one.

Speaker 0 | 31:52.390

Okay. What about the supermarket? What’s the big local supermarket called over there?

Speaker 1 | 31:57.175

Oh, they got Woolworths and then we got like-Woolworths?

Speaker 0 | 32:01.739

Woolworths. Oh, you got Aldi too? Oh,

Speaker 1 | 32:03.100

Aldi. Oh, okay. That’s where I usually go or the local shop because I like to give them my money.

Speaker 0 | 32:13.430

Yeah. All right. So Moving along, so we did a website checking to see if something’s legit by googling it and putting scam at the end of it. And okay, so what do we do though in the midst of all this? How do we not get caught up in all of this?

Speaker 1 | 32:32.186

I think it’s important to note that people just need to take their time. So what you get with all this stuff, with scams. What you get is this, you bypass the normal flow of how you think and you kind of panic and you do things unconsidered. So if you get fear, if you get reward, you get curiosity, you get whatever, you know, you think it might be a scam. People just have to realize that just take time. If someone’s scaring you, exciting you, whatever, just chill. And especially for the older generation who are retired, you’ve got no damn excuse for not taking your time, right? you got it you got the time so just just chill and just have a think about it what if you’re an impatient hasty old person you’re scuttled right that’s

Speaker 0 | 33:27.332

that’s the problem that’s the problem is i’ve got a lot there’s a lot of hasty and impatient people in the world in fact i would say 80 percent the fact that the 80 20 rule 80 of the world is impatient and hasty

Speaker 1 | 33:40.812

We have got to hope that they are listening to this and I’m just, you know, we’re drilling it in and he’s going to just take your time. Just don’t do it. Don’t click on it. Don’t do anything. Don’t give anyone your background details. Just chill and ask for help if you’re not sure. You know, it’s massive, right? But with what I teach, I just, I say I teach suspicion, right? Because if you’re suspicious, you’ll stop and you’ll think and you’ll go, yeah, maybe I shouldn’t do that. that’s it you did it you won you did a great job because you’re going to ask for help or maybe you’re going to find out it’s a scam right because people if they do their own research they get good at it they’ll quickly discover it themselves so well yeah yeah great

Speaker 0 | 34:24.844

I’d like to sell suspicion can we sell suspicion that would be great put it in a bottle go for a fortune hey there’s an exam in there Oh,

Speaker 1 | 34:40.092

that’s, that’s my how to X, um,

Speaker 0 | 34:44.354

tip.

Speaker 1 | 34:44.414

Just,

Speaker 0 | 34:44.914

just chill. So one of the easiest things that I think if, if I was to become a hacker of some sort, um, cause I do this on a regular basis for customers, um, um, phone calls. So we make a phone call. We pretend to be someone else. Um, it’s pretty easy.

Speaker 1 | 35:01.402

It’s pretty easy.

Speaker 0 | 35:03.323

It’s pretty easy. Um, I know from an ISP’s perspective, it’s pretty easy to call up an ISP and say, I’m so-and-so. I need my IP information. Or I need, I don’t know, whatever. I need to replace my cell phone and send it here. It’s not hard to do.

Speaker 1 | 35:23.690

Yeah,

Speaker 0 | 35:24.610

that’s scary. It’s really not. It’s not. I mean, think about it. Because most call centers, at least in our country, are filled with butts in the seat, hourly workers. A lot of times they’re doing kind of the general security check. But over here, I mean, it’s usually like, hey, what’s your address? What’s this? What’s that? Give me some examples. What do we need to worry about on the phone calls? Those are incoming phone calls, I guess. But what do we need to worry about on phone calls?

Speaker 1 | 35:49.822

I mean, you can kind of handle the phone calls that come into you if someone’s trying to scam behind your back, like, you know, send us a new SIM card somewhere else. Well, that’s when you rely on your mobile phone provider, which is not that hard. And, you know, hopefully that changes for you. I know they’re changing it here, so that’s good to make it hard to do that. But, look, I would say with phone calls, it’s actually really, again, like I say, simple rules keep it simple. It’s actually really simple to handle. Take away what they’re asking about, right? Now, most of the time, if someone gives you that, again, we’re going back to fear or reward or whatever, curiosity. If someone rings up and says, hey, your phone line’s being disconnected. Actually, I’ll get back to the phone. I’ll leave that as a good example at the end because it’s funny. If they say your Internet’s being disconnected, tell them you don’t have Internet. Right. And if they hang up, you know. Right. You know it was a scam. It’s that simple. Because if they go, well, you do. we’re an internet provider, you know, I mean, then maybe you hang up. But yeah, I mean, generally they’ll just hang up, right? If they say, hey, you’re, you know, you go to jail, it’s the ATO to say, I don’t pay tax, but take away the thing they’re actually talking about. And I do it all the time and they just hang up and, you know, it’s a scam. The phone one’s interesting. I’ve actually done this. I’ve been talking to someone. scammer rings up and he says, well, your phone’s being disconnected, blah, blah, blah, and you need to do this and this. And I said, dude, I don’t have a phone. Talking on the phone and they’re like, damn it, so they hang up. So even that works, right? But yeah, look, it’s that simple. You can have a crack at them. You can say, look, stop scamming me, but don’t even do it. I tried this once. I wanted to see how long I can get them calling me back if I really pissed them off. I had Ron calling me for like, oh, it must have been like three weeks or a month. We had some great chats. Eventually I broke them. And he wouldn’t call me back again. But yeah, they can call you like every day for the rest of your life.

Speaker 0 | 38:00.570

Oh, I have definitely broken some guys.

Speaker 1 | 38:02.932

Yeah.

Speaker 0 | 38:05.293

I had them say some things that were, if I had had it recorded, it would have definitely turned some heads. I was surprised at what they said. I was actually really surprised at what he came back at with me with like, wow.

Speaker 1 | 38:17.682

It’s, it’s, it’s fun to do, but I don’t, I don’t recommend it, especially to, uh, yeah, to people that aren’t prepared for that. Take away what they’re asking about. It works great. They’ll just hang up.

Speaker 0 | 38:32.655

Um, how do you feel about giving out private information?

Speaker 1 | 38:36.438

Oh, I love it. I just give out everything. This is, yeah, look, again, real simple rules. And this is becoming a real problem for people where they’re being asked to give out so much information. So, again, what I say is if you 100% know someone, you go, I know that dude, right? And you 100% trust them, cool. You can give them information. That’s fine.

Speaker 0 | 39:02.215

Anything else? How do you know that they didn’t hack their Facebook account and jump into their messenger?

Speaker 1 | 39:07.802

Well, I’m probably talking more about, you know, voice.

Speaker 0 | 39:11.344

Okay. I’m saying like a quick answer, right?

Speaker 1 | 39:13.746

Like think about it. Okay. But yeah, but again, that gets covered by a different rule because you combine these rules. So when you say, and I know what you’re talking about, the messenger gets hacked. So what are they going to send through? They’re going to send a link, right? They’re not going to chat to you. They always send a link and it’s always pretty much something like, hey, is this you in this video? You know what I mean? and this is why the teaching stuff goes quite a bit of detail because then you’re teaching people how to read links and that’s quite hard. Like we can’t cover that today, but then you’d look at the link and go, what the hell is that? I don’t trust that.

Speaker 0 | 39:53.386

Curiosity. That’s curiosity.

Speaker 1 | 39:55.747

Yeah, that’s the curiosity scam, right? So you have to combine roles. But look, if you do trust someone, like… You and me are talking right now. So, yeah, I feel totally comfortable giving you my credit card details. But, yeah, look, if someone rings you up and they’re asking for information, you’re going, I don’t know you at all. Like, I obviously don’t trust you. So you give them nothing.

Speaker 0 | 40:22.134

It must get even more complicated though, because even though we know each other and you might give someone up for it, how do you know that the information you’re giving to your friend, even your friend is secure enough? But maybe that’s a little bit more complicated. That’s more complicated. That gives it a PCI compliance and that’s not going to elderly. It’s not going to like, you know, whatever we’re talking about.

Speaker 1 | 40:39.004

Yeah, there’s always going to be some risk. You know, nothing is 100% safe, but you know, we’re playing the probability game. Probably going to be okay. But when you don’t know someone. and they’re asking for your information, that’s not okay, right? But I know there’s, what’s the little guy’s name? He’s got YouTube bids and he walks around. I’ve seen one of his bids and he walks around and he’s got a big clipboard and he just walks up to people, right? And I think he’s in California.

Speaker 0 | 41:04.510

Sparks? Are you talking about David Sparks asking people for their passwords?

Speaker 1 | 41:08.311

No, no, I’ve seen that one too. That’s classic. I think he’s in Santa Monica, this guy, and he’s walking around with a big clipboard and he just walks up to people and he’s funny because he’s quiet. quite authoritative how he looks at people he just walks up and goes name and they and they give him his name right they give me a name and then he’s gone why he’s hooked he goes my number okay and then he address and he he just does it one after the other right and these people are just giving all this information and you know where do you live what’s your unit number and he gets so much information then he goes and this is relevant for you guys social security number I’m not sure if I feel comfortable giving that out. What’s it for again? He comes up with a crappy aside. It’s just a thing with the programs to help out with the program thing. It’s absolutely terrible, right? But people have just given him all this information. For me, if he comes up to me, I’m going, I know you’re from a bar of soap, dude. I don’t know you. I don’t trust you. How about you get nothing? You know, same applies on the phone. Someone rings up asking for info. They have to prove they are who they say they are. You know, if they’re from the bank, they should be giving you information to prove they are from the bank. The last four digits of your account number are this. You know, a transaction you did recently was for this amount of money. You know, if they can prove it, you go, cool, you’re my bank. Otherwise, bring them back on a number that you find. But, yeah, it even gets to the point now, I’ve seen it here, that… You might go to a concert or a free event in a park and you go to the coffee cart. You go to get a coffee, right? And you walk up and you order a coffee. I go, cool, what’s your phone number? You know, you’re like,

Speaker 0 | 42:57.016

what? All the key hours.

Speaker 1 | 42:57.956

So we’ll text you when your coffee’s ready. I have fun with that. Oh, that’s great. It’s normally some young kid standing there. I go, oh, that’s cool. Yeah, so how are you going to store that? how are you going to protect it how are you going to use it who gets access to that number is it going to be used for marketing purposes will you be sharing it yes of course collect it collect it and protect it that sort of thing can you give me some information you got a privacy policy you can share oh yeah i can’t ask for anything these poor kids are just looking at me like what what are you and then i just say look i’m standing right here you just tell me when the coffee’s ready and we’ll be all sweet right and you know i’m hoping in their head they’re going you

Speaker 0 | 43:40.306

yeah that’s a good point why don’t we deal with that but invariably you’re going to get added to some marketing lists you know yeah i’m adding people to marching lists my marketing list uh i try you know how hard it is do you know how hard it is to grow a podcast in in an it field where everyone knows about you know don’t click on something and don’t and don’t join this list and that do you know how hard it is to get an it director’s email and phone number it’s near impossible oh i’ll send you a list so i just bought them off this guy. It’s almost impossible. I have to talk to you on the phone. I have to do this. I have to do that. I have to interview on the show. Then I have to call you a year later. I have to send you something in the mail, flowers. Let’s see, fly over, visit you in Australia, and then maybe you’ll give me an email and phone number. Yeah. And I guess that’s a good thing.

Speaker 1 | 44:33.216

I guess that’s a good thing. You know, it’s the way it is.

Speaker 0 | 44:38.278

don’t give out information yeah it’s that simple unless you know them and trust them let’s uh scare the living day so let’s scare the living daylights out of people some now right now and you give me some good examples of things that have happened that are the worst you know worst things that you’ve seen just even recently um

Speaker 1 | 44:57.388

i guess we kind of see the whole gamut of things because you know when we go and train companies um invariably you’ve got people talking about the horrible things that happened um And it’s horrible because if you train a company that has been hacked, it’s a different vibe, you know, like pre-being breached. They’re kind of like, yeah, having fun and this is great. Oh, wow. It’s a team-building session. But if you go to a company that’s been breached, they’re just like. I wish I knew this before. They’re just kind of kicking themselves. Unfortunately, that’s where you get the real bad stories. But look, you know, the ransomware stuff is horrific. I think that’s probably the worst when they get locked out of their files and they can’t recover and they go to their backups and they realize their backups haven’t been running or they haven’t been testing the restores and they find out that it’s just they don’t have any files. And their business is kind of stuffed and, you know, they’re kind of basically about to go bankrupt. So that’s probably the worst. So what you want, like…

Speaker 0 | 46:07.902

Well, first of all, why does that put a company out of business, just out of curiosity? Because it locks every database. I mean, whatever…

Speaker 1 | 46:14.907

Yeah, your information is your business. You lose everything. Like, you know, you can’t function. I do backups here. And if you don’t… I’ve got so many different types of backups. It’s not funny. And I just realized that if I lose that stuff, man, it’s an absolute disaster. Like if I lose all of my intellectual property, all of my framework stuff, all of my training, you know, like if I lost, if I didn’t have backups and my training courses got locked and encrypted, I can’t train. So what am I going to do? Spend, what, probably 12 weeks solid rebuilding another course that, that won’t be as good because I’ll miss a ton of stuff. You know, for me, it would be a disaster. It’s the same for any company. Yeah, yeah. You lose your stuff.

Speaker 0 | 47:02.105

It’s like your senior thesis in the 90s got erased on the disc. Someone put a magnet on the disc. Something stupid like that, you know. I lost everything. Oh, I lost papers. So,

Speaker 1 | 47:18.431

yeah, look, it’s a big deal. And that was one of our discussion topics is, is backups like man backup your stuff you know and it’s not hard to do um you know the software you can use but really in its simplest form i would always say to people just make a nice simple structure you know and i i just say and this is how i dealt with my parents have a folder windows explorer that is called files and then under that have folders one for photos one for videos one for documents whatever And all you have to do is just pick up that files folder and copy it to a USB key or something, you know?

Speaker 0 | 47:56.299

What about Google Drive? Are you a fan of Google Drive or something like that in the cloud?

Speaker 1 | 48:01.120

I am and I’m not. I think you need to do your own backups. I know people that use Google Drive and have lost everything. How? Right? So one of them got hacked and someone managed to get in there and just delete all their files from Google Drive. And then it all deleted off their computer, their synced computer.

Speaker 0 | 48:21.538

and they weren’t too diligent about chasing it up and they ran out of time and they couldn’t restore it um i lost my desktop the other day it was a weird glitch it was a weird iCloud glitch like i had disconnected iCloud and iCloud was connected on my phone and then it was disconnected on my computer so then when i reconnected iCloud it synced to my phone and erased my desktop wow

Speaker 1 | 48:45.985

yeah that sucks yeah you

Speaker 0 | 48:48.126

It was like 30 days worth of work. You know, it was like a stupid thing, you know, where I just wasn’t, you know, like, you know, I was just being kind of throwing stuff on the desktop, being haphazard, you know, working and, you know, so. And that was heartbreaking enough to lose that. That was like, you know, I don’t know, 30 or 15 days worth of work or whatever I had on my desktop. Yeah, so. Okay, so yeah. So back up.

Speaker 1 | 49:11.906

Yeah, you’ve got to have control of your own files. Like having Google. That’s not you in control of your files. That’s Google in control of your files. So just make sure you’ve got extra copies. I mean, I’m a nut with backups, right? I use NAS, network-attached storage, and then I’ve got another NAS, and every Friday it powers up and it copies everything over. And then every night I’m copying up increments.

Speaker 0 | 49:36.282

With, like, timestamps or, like, timestamps so you can go back to, like, a bare metal backup from, like, you know, I don’t know, a month ago or something crazy like that?

Speaker 1 | 49:43.628

I do that with external hard drives. point in time backups and then I’m also using Amazon S3 for incrementals every night if we get hacked it’s like yeah okay it’s alright just use a backup it’s like a whole other show in itself like how to back up your personal files it’s quite a there’s so many ways of doing it It’s one of the problems.

Speaker 0 | 50:14.503

How to back up your file so you don’t lose everything, your entire life and whatever. Click on this link here, enter your information.

Speaker 1 | 50:20.568

Yeah. I mean, there are rules that you go by with backups. You know, you’ve got your grandfather, father, son, and your 3-2-1 and all that sort of stuff, which is a bit techy, but that sort of gives you the basis for how you do this stuff. Bit out of scope for today’s chat, no doubt.

Speaker 0 | 50:37.426

All right. So what do we got? Do we need to review any more? Do we need to review any stories before my kids break into this room and start yelling? You’re going to hear them in the background in a second. I can hear them just outside. Yeah, yeah. They’ve almost broken through the perimeter.

Speaker 1 | 50:49.730

I’ve tied my kid down outside with muffles. Look, yeah, let’s crank through, quick fire on some examples of how this stuff implements. You’ve already covered this one. You got the virus in your computer, so it’s scare tactics. You don’t know them, you don’t trust them, tell them you don’t have a computer hanging up. You could get an email saying your account is locked, you know, log in to unlock it. So it’s scare tactics, you know, do you trust the email? Do you know who sent it? Nah, delete it. Yeah, go and check out your account yourself. Can you log in, you know, go to the address that you know, and don’t click on it.

Speaker 0 | 51:26.620

So like a reset your Microsoft 365. Yeah,

Speaker 1 | 51:29.601

that sort of stuff.

Speaker 0 | 51:30.101

Something like that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 | 51:31.322

Yeah, the URL might look legit. It might be Office 365-login or something.

Speaker 0 | 51:36.386

They copied the URL looking password, yeah. Yeah,

Speaker 1 | 51:40.189

just go to the page yourself and have a look. Can you log in? Don’t click on that link. You don’t know who that came from, so don’t trust it. Okay. Text messages are a great way. They do the free reward, you know, stuff in there, free lunch tactics. You know, you’ve got a free gift. Click on this link.

Speaker 0 | 51:57.644

So what’s wrong with text messages?

Speaker 1 | 52:00.370

Let’s go through.

Speaker 0 | 52:01.310

Let me find one recently. I found it. Dot, dot, dot. Gratis sample packs today till midnight. Order one here. Just seven remaining. P.353mail.com forward slash NRQ P8AK5 You’re saying don’t click on that one.

Speaker 1 | 52:19.055

Oh yeah, don’t click on that. That’s typically when games come in. You don’t hover on a link in a… text message. And you can’t. Yeah, it’s where you’re going. But usually they look dodgy, you know? Yeah. But yeah, don’t take the free lunch. If there is something, maybe get on to the company, give them a call or something if you wanted. But it’s almost always a scam. What else have we got? Look, emails with attachments. Maybe sometimes I tell you like an example, hey, there’s been a problem with the payment. You know, click on the attachment for details. That’s your curiosity stuff. You click on that thing and maybe it installs the virus on your computer or maybe it directs you to a web page and then they try and hack you through that web page. The curiosity stuff, if you’re not sure, don’t click on it. If you think it relates to something, do your own research. Get on your back and look at payments or whatever. That stuff’s almost always a scam. Don’t be… And something I teach, like links, like, you know, click on that. or attachments in emails. That’s the pain train right now. You know, that’s going to burn you if you get it wrong. So just be really careful with that stuff and just maybe just don’t do it. Just look into it a bit. I think another one, a great one, kind of the curiosity, the fear of missing out is voicemail scams. You know, you get an email that says, you’ve got a voicemail, you know, click here to listen to it. And people go, what’s that? You know, especially for people like me, small business, and you go, oh, is that a potential client? The thing with that is if you have a voicemail, you should know what your email looks like, right? So this won’t look like that. It’s someone’s email because it’s a scam. So again, don’t close to the end. And maybe another example, which I really like, we’ve been watching you on your computer through your webcam. Have you ever had that one?

Speaker 0 | 54:18.755

No.

Speaker 1 | 54:21.234

Hilarious. And I have had so many calls from friends and companies saying, someone’s on my webcam and they’re watching me and they said I’m a dirty boy. Okay, all right, cool. And what they do is they go, we’ve hacked your computer and you’ve got your password. And they provide a password and the person goes, oh my God, that’s not my password. Well, cool. What they did is they just went to a breach that’s out on the dark web. password so they’ve done a little bit of research and they send it through and it makes it look legit so these people freak out and go oh my god i’ve been watching you know me on my webcam and they’re going to send the video to my family okay it’s just a scam just delete the damn thing they just they just got one of your passwords off you know a breach source somewhere um just delete it you’re good don’t worry Yeah, that sort of stuff. This stuff is only limited by the imagination of the criminals, unfortunately. That’s why we need simple rules and suspicion.

Speaker 0 | 55:20.537

Is there anything people should do to go through and purge any weaknesses they have right now?

Speaker 1 | 55:30.168

Yeah, themselves. We are the weakness. So honestly, when you look at how we get breached, it’s just about always us. We get tricked. It’s literally that simple. So you can put antivirus on your computer, like, cool. Go out and do a search for the best antivirus of 2021 or whatever year you’re in and buy that. But it’s not going to save you. But it’ll help a little bit. But the. what, over 90% of breaches are through us because we are gullible.

Speaker 0 | 56:02.658

We are helpful. I’m just thinking change your passwords, antivirus, backups.

Speaker 1 | 56:09.100

Yeah, absolutely. You know, passwords. Get the password management book. Do that. Different passwords everywhere. Yeah, the backups. And backups are critical. If they stuff your files, you just go, oh, good, I’ve got my files. Go away. I’m not paying your answer. And if you get breached. in one place, you don’t get breached everywhere. So, yeah, good points. But really, it all comes down to us. And I’ll say it a million times, just be suspicious. If you don’t know how to act,

Speaker 0 | 56:40.436

don’t. So, first of all, everyone listening to this show, if you like this show, you find this helpful, please, please, for the love of humanity, go to… Apple Music, iTunes, whatever they call that, find Dissecting Popular IT Nerds, and please give us an honest review. This is what I’m told to ask you by my podcast consultant, that I need iTunes reviews, that somehow that’s very, very important, and I need them fast and in a short period of time. So that’s me selfishly speaking here. On the other hand, if you would like… Mike, and I don’t know if you can do this, but if you would like to, Mike, what do you do for a professional living? Because you do this on a large scale for actually businesses. I’m assuming you come in, you act real boring. It’s like a terribly boring time. You charge people a lot of money for it.

Speaker 1 | 57:32.169

Yeah, I go, look, my preference is face-to-face training. And I do turn up, it’s funny you say that because I do say, look, hey, I know this is going to be dry and boring and I apologize for that. And then I don’t make it boring. Like I like to muck around and have a lot of fun and crack a lot of jokes and do some wacky things. And people are just like, Oh, that was actually really fun. They were blown away. But, um, zoom training, I do zoom training as well.

Speaker 0 | 57:56.775

Um,

Speaker 1 | 57:56.835

it’s a little bit different.

Speaker 0 | 57:57.936

We could have you in as, as if it was like a paid, like, like a paid event that we would pay a comedian to come in and do and get nothing accomplished where they could pay you and actually get a lot accomplished and maybe save the company from disaster.

Speaker 1 | 58:11.343

Absolutely. I mean, you don’t do awareness training. This is one of the challenges in the industry. It’s generally boring as bat poo. People, I didn’t say the bad word, people just switch off. And you’re like, well, hey, when you just, you paid money to do awareness training and people just fell asleep through it. Like, what a disaster.

Speaker 0 | 58:31.945

It’s going to be fun.

Speaker 1 | 58:33.165

If you’re going to do this stuff, find something that’s fun and engaging. It’s going to be fun.

Speaker 0 | 58:38.400

Sounds good. Thank you so much for being on the show. This has been the pleasure. It’s really been all mine. I would love to hear some more about near-death avoided and stabbings and alleys. That was great. That was probably the most fun.

Speaker 1 | 58:53.128

Thanks.

Speaker 0 | 58:53.869

Yes, sir.

Speaker 1 | 58:54.649

It was good fun.

Speaker 0 | 58:55.730

Outstanding.