Speaker 0 | 00:09.708
You are listening to Dissecting Popular IT Nerds today. And this is your host, Phil Howard. I think most people know that. But today we’re talking with Chris Savage. More of the, we were talking old school. We started out. And well, first of all, Chris, I’ll let you introduce yourself. What’s your, what are you doing nowadays? What are you doing now?
Speaker 1 | 00:32.089
Yeah. Chris Savage. I’m currently vice president of cloud services for a company called MotiveWorks based out of Maryland. I’m actually in Texas that gives you kind of the scope of how the, the cloud is allowing people to pretty much work anywhere. So.
Speaker 0 | 00:48.656
Yeah. No one really ever knows where I’m at. I tell people I’m in Maine. Sometimes I’m in Washington, DC. Other times I’m locked up in jail in Egypt. That was the only time that. I didn’t have access to the internet, which was really kind of shocking. I just assumed I would have access to the internet all the time. And then I got my entire life confiscated from me. And yeah, people thought I was like, had a fake American passport. And then I was posing as an American, really a hidden Turkish guy. That was interesting. That story is coming up. That’s going to be a fun episode. But other than that, we’re almost always connected to the grid, so to speak. And we’ll keep going. Keep going. What do you guys do?
Speaker 1 | 01:26.432
So, yeah, so we’re a Microsoft partner. We do all things Azure related. So we’ll do migrations. We’ll optimize your Azure environment. You know, we can help with, you know, the lift and shift migration, application modernization, data modernization. Azure has the new Synapse platform. They’re really pushing a lot of clients, too, because it really can help optimize that business intelligence. And then. For the minimal cost that Synapse can bring from just adding in AI and machine learning is a pretty powerful statement. So we’ve had some clients do some of that as well.
Speaker 0 | 02:09.209
We just threw in so much really nerdy stuff. It’s great. Everyone knows what we’re talking about. There might be some people that actually listen to this show every now and then. Like my son, for example, who’s 14. I’m trying to get into this business. We had a… We had a kind of come to reality moment the other day where we drove by our old house. He’s like, I wonder if that Wi-Fi still pops up. And I was, I almost had a heart attack. I was like, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. What did you just say? He gave me right away. I was like, let’s go through a general network diagram right now. And okay, what is a switch? What is a firewall? Why would the Wi-Fi not come up anymore? Tell me now. And anyways, so sorry, moment. I’ve been drinking a lot of coffee right before we got on this call, which is recommended by you, of course. But let’s go over just real quick. One of the common themes of the show is helping IT leadership explain, sell, train end users, sell to upper management, executive people that IT is not a cost center anymore. Obviously, it’s a business force multiplier. So let’s just go through real quick the general definitions. And we’ll do this real quick because hopefully only nerds are listening to the show. But what is Azure? What is Synapse? And why would AI or machine learning and why would there be any reduction in minimal cost, even for people that really already do know what Azure is, et cetera?
Speaker 1 | 03:37.675
Right. So Azure is Microsoft’s cloud platform. So if you’re an executive and you made a heavy investment in Microsoft technologies, Microsoft has made it fairly easy to move into the cloud, the public cloud, right? So everybody’s talking about that. Right. AWS obviously was the first big leader in exploiting the fact they had all this capacity in their data centers. And now Microsoft went out and built data centers with lots of capacity. So that’s what Azure is. Synapse is a platform Microsoft recently came up with that takes a bunch of different parts that they actually had already in Azure and kind of bundled it into one package. It is basically a business intelligence. platform that allows you to pull in data from multiple different sources. So you have an existing EDW, Enterprise Data Warehouse, you pull all of that data into Synapse and then start doing reporting on it. The artificial intelligence and machine learning components of that come into play by allowing you to leverage the power of artificial intelligence. Basically does a recursive look through the data sets to find some of those interesting hidden data points that we humans may not connect.
Speaker 0 | 04:59.129
Let’s just do a quick example, just because this is fun. What would you say is the cutoff point for company size and data set size where this starts to make a difference? And what type of companies are verticals? I mean, are we talking biopharmaceuticals? Are we talking manufacturing, mostly retail? Where do we make a big difference here?
Speaker 1 | 05:21.310
So our clients that have deployed this have been financial services companies. We’ve done some work with manufacturing companies. We’ve done work with retailers. So I think it applies across the board to any business that has any volume of data coming through their systems. You know, if you’re a smaller retailer, probably doesn’t make too much sense. The economics of it, it can get very expensive very quickly. But the power of it is that it allows you to take and leverage all of the data that’s in your business and turn it into actionable points of interest. Right. So, for example, if you’re a retailer and you’re doing kind of the same day in and day out. analysis of your top SKUs, well, this might find a relationship between four of your top SKUs that you didn’t even know existed. And so then you start thinking about, well, how do I take those, that relationship? Because, you know, let’s say for instance, you know, you’re a Walmart type and somebody comes in and they buy oil, right? You know, car oil, motor oil, but at the same time, they’re picking up, you know, why… machine you know the towels right or filters right but then then you know they’re off and they go over and they pick up a six-pack of coke right because you know if you’re going to change your own oil you need something to drink while you’re doing it right so there’s all these uncovered patterns that the artificial intelligence can help you identify and i think there’s offer them a coupon exactly perfect it’s like when i drive into the wendy’s park and not and you know
Speaker 0 | 07:04.355
And suddenly my McDonald’s app offers me a free large fry, you know, go figure somehow. So somehow they’re doing that. So excellent. How then do you guys, just to plug your company real quick, how do you guys help people save money, become more efficient, et cetera. And I’m not getting this for everyone listening. I’m not getting paid for you plugging your company, but, but maybe we can figure that out on the backend. I have yet to have a sponsor. I do this as a labor of love. But go ahead. And the reason why I do this also is because I really do feel for the IT directors out there that are still stuck in a cost center and are drinking from the fire hose. I don’t know if you’ve ever been there. Have you ever been there? We are going to take a trip down memory lane.
Speaker 1 | 07:50.721
I have, yes. I’ve waded through my fair share of corporate IT, so I understand all of those pain points for sure. So, you know, at MotiveWorks, we’re really focused on delivering solid solutions with Azure that are cost effective. I think there are a lot of partners out there that throw, you know, a whole bunch of really cool spreadsheets and PowerPoints up in their sales presentations. And, you know, at the end of the day, you know, they force you into doing all things that help benefit them, you know. But. they’re not really looking out for their end users or their customers. And, you know, our focus really is on enabling customers and delivering the right value solutions so that they can get started in the cloud. And, you know, the cloud is so critical, I think, for any company that wants to have some sort of agility in their business. And the reason the cloud allows that is because it allows IT
Speaker 0 | 08:58.711
services to be deployed fairly quickly with minimal amount of cost or overhead or even test environments testing right you don’t have to purchase equipment managing managing it even if you needed other external hands on things it’s easy to scale i would think from that standpoint it
Speaker 1 | 09:19.386
is and the the other the other piece of it and i think this is another thing that we excel at really well is governance Setting up those guardrails to making sure that, you know, your developers don’t decide to spin up an Azure data warehouse over the weekend, leave it running. You know, at five grand a day, that’s 15 grand, you know, over a three day weekend. And we’ve got a four day weekend coming up. Oh, let’s let’s play around with the data warehouse right before we go on Memorial Day vacation. So all of those things can add up fairly quickly. So that’s the reason why we focus on a lot of Azure policy. And. governance and making sure that when you go into Azure, you go in with the right mindset of, you know, restricting access, but providing that flexibility and capability to grow the business as quickly as you can.
Speaker 0 | 10:10.955
You brought up a good point that I see a lot across the marketplace, and that is spreadsheets, PowerPoints, bragging rights, pay-to-play models. We’re in the Gartner Magic Quadrant. We’re this, we’re that. And a lot of sales forward, kind of upfront sales process that is meant to benefit the company. You can clearly see it in the terms and conditions. A lot of times you have one-sided agreements that are clearly written in a way to protect the vendor. How does one identify such characters? And I’m not necessarily saying they’re bad. It’s just a lot of companies, high-level executives pride themselves in their ability to present a winning company. So a lot of times when another winning company presents themselves in the same way, they can be attracted to that. And it’s not necessarily the right choice. It was just shined up really, really well. And I think that there is a dearth of providers and vendors in the world nowadays that it would be very, very hard to sift and sort and migrate through this massive ocean. and not fall into the spreadsheet and PowerPoint world. And those guys kind of tend to rise to the top a lot and not necessarily deserving of that.
Speaker 1 | 11:46.657
Yeah, so what I tell our clients is we’re happy to provide you with a list of clients that serve as reference points. You know, if you’re a financial services company and the partner comes to you and their entire set of icons, you know, labels, logos as they like to call them, is all retail providers, that’s probably not a good provider for you, right? So I always tell our clients, you know, do some due diligence. We’re happy to provide that unfiltered client recommendation call. And we’ve got several clients that are very happy with us. A few that we’ve given out that are, you know, they’re not quite the the glowing praise, but they recognize that With any project, there were hiccups, but if you can recover from those hiccups well, I think that proves out that you’ve got the chops to undertake any kind of major project for any kind of client.
Speaker 0 | 12:47.521
What you’re saying is technology is always seamless. Technology migrations are seamless.
Speaker 1 | 12:59.669
Yeah, they always work. 100% of the time when they don’t.
Speaker 0 | 13:04.592
Let’s get back to the past corporate world experience. But first of all, let’s go back in time. What was your first computer?
Speaker 1 | 13:14.155
It was a Dell 286.
Speaker 0 | 13:17.557
Was it a little half stack?
Speaker 1 | 13:19.938
No, it was a desktop. It was a desktop model. And, you know, I’ll tell you what. So I lived in Austin at the time. I was going to school at UT Austin. Relative gave me the computer and said, I don’t need this anymore. Do with it what you want. So I turned it on. I was having some issues with it. I was 20.
Speaker 0 | 13:40.630
Okay.
Speaker 1 | 13:42.412
Yeah, I think it was 20. And so I was like, oh, wow, this is cool. So I was always the kid that could take things apart and put it back together. And so I really liked this computer because I took it apart and figured out that the CMOS battery was bad on it. I gave good old Dell a call and said, I’ve got this computer. I think it’s a few years old. Do you still sell this battery? And the woman on the phone that answered, she was like, oh, yeah, I’ve got one here right on my desk. I’ll just send it to you. I sent it right away.
Speaker 0 | 14:13.854
Isn’t it crazy how it used to be? Yeah.
Speaker 1 | 14:17.837
It is no longer like that.
Speaker 0 | 14:19.838
You would look up the 1-800 number in the part magazine or whatever and call them up and someone would answer. Like, okay, I can’t run this program. Okay, I need you to go cd backslash autoexec bat. I want you to move memory around here. Oh, it works. It’s awesome. And then you call them back the next day. But now this program is not working. Okay, we’re going to need to move down here. And then you learn how to move memory around and do different things. Excellent. What did you do on that first computer?
Speaker 1 | 14:51.672
You know, the very first thing I did was I got a modem card and connected. to the UT internet space. So I was doing Gopher and a little FTPing. I didn’t quite understand FTP at the time. So I was getting pictures and I was like, oh, this will be cool to look at. It took me a while to figure out how to actually look at pictures that you downloaded off the internet. It’s crazy because nowadays it’s like,
Speaker 0 | 15:22.964
it happens. I don’t know if people really understand. I wonder if we could even, is there even a, some sort of… I don’t know. Can we go back in time and still access these things and somehow?
Speaker 1 | 15:38.554
Well, you know, there are some, somebody still runs a gopher server somewhere. I’m sure, you know, IRC is still a big thing in certain circles. So yeah, I’m sure that there’s somebody out there with a gopher server. I don’t know how you’re going to access it now. I think Chrome took away gopher as a protocol.
Speaker 0 | 15:56.461
At what point did you realize I can do this as a career?
Speaker 1 | 16:02.732
Probably right after I built my home network. So there’s a company, Computer City, that used to be around. I don’t know if you remember them or not. But there was one here in my local town. And they always had this giant rack of clearance stuff. So I went in one day and they had this Novell network. My mom had used it at her work because I helped troubleshoot it for her at her work. Like, ooh, Novell. Cool. So I picked it up. I went to the checkout line. The guy’s like, I don’t know how much this is. How about 10 bucks? All right, fine. I gave him 10 bucks. So it was a pen license Novell Network 312. So I set that up at my house just so I could play with it. So we had, my mom had gotten her own computer at the time. She was doing some computer classes at local community college. And so we had our home, our own little home network. I’ll never forget the very first Switch slash hub I bought. It was an Eagle Networks 8 port. It was black. It was a solid piece of equipment. And it was about the size of a ream of paper these days.
Speaker 0 | 17:21.686
You say that was a solid piece of equipment, like nowadays equipment is not.
Speaker 1 | 17:26.609
Well, you know, it was, you know, it had a whole… metal rack and you know i just i recently bought a uh a switch for the house that one that had gone bad after less than a year and uh you know it’s kind of flimsy it’s mostly plastic it’s not you know it’s certainly not aluminum gray you know aluminum aircraft grade type material
Speaker 0 | 17:50.445
for the chassis at all so i’m still looking at my tp link poe switch right now that i got for 50 right it’s still in it
Speaker 1 | 17:59.628
Oh, hey, they make a decent product.
Speaker 0 | 18:01.790
I mean, 50 bucks. What are you going to do? All right. Okay. So you built this network in your house. And at what point were you like, I can do this for businesses or what?
Speaker 1 | 18:12.878
So I did a little bit, you know, consulting on the side. And I was at the time working for a company that did corporate apartments. So when I was in college, I worked at hotels. And that experience translated nicely into doing a corporate apartment gig. And the company that was running the corporate apartment, they’re releasing them to EDS at the time. And so I started talking with a lot of the EDS folks and, you know, they would come in, they had their laptop and it wasn’t working right. I’m like, well, yeah, I can help you with that. So I kind of became a little bit of a de facto tech person. A couple of them got interested and said, you should really apply to our company. So I applied over there. I got a technical support job in their technical products division. So I was on the support team for the state of Michigan account that EDS had at the time. And so, you know, just grew from there. After that, I went to work for the local community college. My mom’s. boss at the time had a need for a network administrator for their workforce development training building. So went in and did that. One of the coolest things I think I ever did early on in my career was I built the first mobile internet lab data. I can say that because we got a the college here got a grant from the Department of Commerce to take the internet to underserved areas. And so my boss was like, all right, I got this money. Let’s go spend it and do this program. So we started up. The local bus agency gave us a mini bus. We redecorated it. We got it painted. We called the program Net on Wheels. I designed the logo. Comic Sans fault. What’s that?
Speaker 0 | 20:28.320
How do we get internet?
Speaker 1 | 20:32.621
So Verizon gave us a cell phone that had a data port out. At the time, D-Link made a hub that was powered by a keyboard port. And so I had my hub plugged into the keyboard port. I had internet sharing turned on on a Windows 95 laptop. All the computers were networked. And then the laptop served as the gateway to the internet. I think we got a whopping 19.2 kilobits per second. Um, you know, if we parked in the right area, we might get a little bit higher, you know, we might get that 33.6, but it was pretty much 19.2 all the way around, which at the time was enough. Right. So we were taking,
Speaker 0 | 21:20.901
um,
Speaker 1 | 21:22.041
we were taking our bus around and doing searches for jobs for people that needed jobs. That was the whole point of it. We actually, um, by the end of the program served about 3000 people. I think is what we logged. And it was over a two-year period, but it was certainly used. And then we got a lot of blood.
Speaker 0 | 21:44.057
See, there’s cool jobs. Like, that’s a good job. I mean, that’s just really cool. I don’t know what else to say about that. Other than that’s really cool. We converted a bus. We made it into a more internet thing. I mean, it doesn’t look much cooler than that.
Speaker 1 | 21:58.307
It was in 97. So, you know, it was a while back. The highest of high technology at the time. So pretty neat.
Speaker 0 | 22:09.975
You have a good mix of, well, first of all, you have a degree, MBA in finance and marketing, entrepreneurship. So you did the degrees right from like a IT, in my opinion, you did the degrees right from an IT perspective. So you have the technology background, but you’ve got the financial and marketing and entrepreneurship piece, which not everyone may have. How important would you say your ability to sell yourself or crunch numbers or make all that fit and understand P&Ls and bottom line and, I don’t know, COGS and gross margin, et cetera? And if you don’t have it, what do you do?
Speaker 1 | 22:52.724
Well, I think it’s hugely important if you’re an up-and-coming technologist that wants to partner with the business. And, you know, when I’ve leveraged that. finance piece of my degree so many times it’s now almost second nature and it was something that i did because i thought it was neat and interesting to me um i’m very glad i did it but it wasn’t it wasn’t anything i you know i didn’t go to mba i wanted to get an mba but i didn’t go just to do the finance uh just kind of fell into that but i think if you’re an up-and-coming you know somebody wants to be an it executive the The best way to go about that is speak the business language and the language of business is finance and understanding what things cost and how they cost the company money. And, you know, understanding that, you know, there is a finite amount of financial resources for any company. And if you can make a case that putting our investment into this technology stack or this upgrade does. X, Y, and Z for the bottom line, that’s what you want. And that X, Y, and Z are things like risk mitigation. Back in the day with older data centers, it was easy to walk in after a major outage and say, we need $5 million to upgrade the data center. They always wrote those checks because they just encountered a $25 million loss because we couldn’t get any business over the weekend. This was a retailer that happened. So there’s all kinds of ways that people in technology can talk to the people of the business. And that, I think, is an important one.
Speaker 0 | 24:43.126
As far as the different layers of technology leadership go,
Speaker 1 | 24:47.609
you’ve got sales,
Speaker 0 | 24:52.874
maybe selling yourself. You’ve got marketing, marketing yourself. You’ve got finance, being able to crunch the numbers and make those work. You’ve got the actual technical experience and do people trust you and do they trust your level of knowledge? kind of all around. You mentioned security is a big piece nowadays. You’ve got people skilled and being able to communicate with end users. And I don’t know if it’s really make them use, make them use the technology that you deliver them or find the right technology that you need to deliver to them that they’ll actually use. You know, of all of those, what’s been the hardest for you?
Speaker 1 | 25:31.206
You know, I think learning how to manage people effectively has been… challenging and rewarding at the same time. Early on, I was put in charge of some teams and I really fumbled the ball quite a bit with some of those people and learned from those mistakes. And what I have found is there is a book called The Servant Leader. And if you’re in technology, I think you should read that. That is what I have adopted. as my mantra for managing technology people. At the end of the day, we’re all professionals. We know what we’re doing. And if we don’t know what we’re doing, we’re going to go figure it out. And so I think your job as a leader is to get out of the way and just enable your people and give them the runway and the bandwidth that they need to go and do what they need to do to get their job done. Set the expectations early, check in, but… I am not a micromanager. I will never be a micromanager. I can’t stand people that do that. That is not anything that I find is an effective way to manage people in technology.
Speaker 0 | 26:45.095
I did the same thing. You just brought back a lot of nightmares, Nia. It’s so much easier to serve. It just is, isn’t it? Oh, yeah. I turned around to look at my bookshelf, and not everyone can see this because this is an audio show, but I know you can see my bookshelf right now. And the fourth book in is the servant leader. And then the book right next to that is First Break All the Rules, both given to me by Starbucks executives. One, First Break All the Rules was given to me by the VP of Starbucks at the time. And that was a life-altering book for me. Servant leader also. But yes, understanding your people is having effective conversations, having the tough conversations in a way that are not. you know you reading your own kind of autobiography under the whole situation is is something that can be a very uh a transformational experience that people go through in life because before you’re the boss every you know everyone can always do it better than the boss everyone’s always better than the boss then when you’re the boss you’re like oh my gosh now i know exactly you know it’s like a life-altering trial of you know whatever it is you know and then hopefully you come out on the other side a better person you know if you’re successful you do and if you’ve made it to where you are certainly you have and you just have that much more i don’t know that knowledge that i don’t know if you have kids but i have kids and when i look down i do okay so then you look down upon them you know it’s kind of like your father telling you you know you’ll know someday when you have kids you’re like oh yeah okay and then you have kids you’re like oh my gosh he was right now i’m experiencing i’m telling it to my kids and i know that they’ll never know they’ll never know until they have kids and it’s like Like this thing that you just have to sit through and be patient with. I don’t know if that was like way too many things at one time. But I know that if you’ve been through it and I’ve been through it, I know you know exactly what I’m talking about. Anyone else listening to this show knows as well. And if there’s anyone out there listening that’s going through the pain, these sleepless nights of, oh my gosh, I screwed up so much, but I care. You know, the true leaders really care, but they screw up. And then. but there’s nothing they can really do about it sometimes because they’ve let people down. If you’re going through that pain and suffering, then yeah, pick up first break all the rules. That’ll help you pick up the servant leader. That’ll help you. Um, there’s probably some other really great books out there and if anyone wants, um, help and coaching through this very painful situation or transformation in your life, uh, please reach out.
Speaker 1 | 29:16.418
Yeah. You know, and, and to that, I’m actually, uh, you know, I’m willing to help too. You know, I, I think the more we educate our, technology people the better. I’ve served on the board for an organization here in Dallas that does exactly that. So we try and train up leaders that are technologists. And so, you know, look for an organization too in your area that can help you with that. But, you know, the way I look at it, the more we have technology leaders that are that servant leader, maybe we can help transform a business from, you know, a… a sort of monolith management company to a, you know, we’re going to lead now. And keep in mind, leading and managing are two different things. And a lot of people want to conflate the two, but they’re very different.
Speaker 0 | 30:06.690
Yes. Managing by checklists and leading by, yeah, leading by, I guess, courage and fearlessness. One of the most powerful things I ever did was have a questionnaire that I gave out to a bunch of employees. This idea came actually from First Break All the Rules. I can’t remember what it was. It might be like 12 different questions and you hand it to one of your managers, right? That all people love. You have them lead the meeting without you and you leave. And then they all fill out all these questionnaires and feedback on you. And then it all goes into this. And then you have the manager type it all up. So, you know, it’s, you don’t know anyone’s handwriting and everything. It’s all completely anonymous. Put it in a yellow envelope and deliver that to you. Go, go have fun reading through that one. You’ll learn more about yourself, you know, from being completely transparent in that methodology. You’ll learn more about yourself from that transparency than you’ve ever learned before. You may, you may cry yourself to sleep that night. this gets real sometimes. So any pieces of advice on leading a team?
Speaker 1 | 31:17.747
As you go up in the ranks, learn how to delegate. I think if there’s one area where I always have a challenge because, you know, I still like to get in and do things, right? I might be at the top, but I’m still very much inclined to hop on and do something in the console. You know, I was the other day editing a PowerShell script just so I could run some reports for a project we were working on. But, you know, learn how to delegate and trust your people when you delegate. I was thinking about that this morning, too. We had another incident where somebody was doing something. It wasn’t exactly the way I wanted to.
Speaker 0 | 32:02.426
you know i stopped myself and said you know what they know what they’re doing i need to just be quiet let them let them run with it so yeah there’s a certain layer there’s a certain level where you know you can’t like over delegate you can’t give someone something that’s like just absolutely like impossible for them you know or way above their level um
Speaker 1 | 32:21.033
but if you know that it’s something that they can do sure that stretch goal is something we should all all learn to achieve at some point absolutely i just
Speaker 0 | 32:32.478
I think the family aspect is an easy metaphor always as well. Would you delegate this to your 14-year-old? Would you say, okay, you can change the oil in the car? I don’t know. Maybe. Can you mow the lawn? Yes. Would it get done exactly the way I have? No, but you can use it as a, you can walk through with him after and provide tips and ask him what he found and asking questions I find to be very effective. Yeah. The endless questions. Dad, why are you doing that? Why did you do this? Not why did you do this, but you know, why? Why? Why do you keep asking why? Stop it. Been a pleasure having you on the show. Any final, any other final words of wisdom, anything that we haven’t touched on that we’ve, that we’ve, we should have that are missing? What should I have asked you?
Speaker 1 | 33:27.274
what do you what do you do when you’re not being a technologist because we should all have things outside of work that we do that is not technology related it’s such a great question because you know i found that’s a great way to decompress and it spurs the mind into processing things so you know you’re you’re worked up doing all your things during the day and then you know i have this small little garden you built. I started out with one pot. I’m up to like 15 pots now in the backyard. And I find just getting out there and watering the plants or doing whatever, it’s just a good way to take my mind off of work. And in the background, your subconscious does all kinds of processing that we’re not even aware of. And that problem that you thought you had, you go out there, you do something else, go for a walk, just do something, get away from the keyboard. you’ll find that some of the problems you didn’t think were solvable are more than solvable.
Speaker 0 | 34:30.627
You just made me think of waves and wind direction. And is it going to change this afternoon so that there’s some surf? And the thing is, you know, why are we doing all this? What is the point of all this? Because a lot of people get so wrapped up, so wrapped up in the career, concrete jungle, whatever you want to call it. you know, career world that we forget, you know, why am I even, why do I even exist to begin with? Um, thank you so much for being on the show.
Speaker 1 | 35:04.745
No, thank you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. It’s been nice talking with you. Thank you.
